She Thought She Found LOVE On Tinder — 3 Days Later, Only Her SCRUBS Were Found – Part 3
The foundation’s mission was to educate young people about the risks of meeting strangers from the internet and to work with dating app companies to implement better safety features.
Katie Morrison left her position at Denver Children’s Hospital to become the foundation’s director.
She felt she could honor Melissa’s memory better by dedicating her life to protecting other women than by continuing to work as a nurse.
The foundation developed educational programs that were presented at colleges and universities across the country.
These programs taught young adults about warning signs of manipulative behavior, the importance of meeting in public places multiple times before going to someone’s home, the need to tell friends and family about dating plans, and how to trust their instincts when something feels wrong.
The programs used Melissa’s story as a cautionary tale, with permission from her family, showing how even intelligent, educated women can fall victim to sophisticated predators.
Melissa’s Foundation also worked directly with dating app companies to improve their safety features.
In partnership with Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, and other major platforms, the foundation advocated for several changes.
Identity verification requirements to reduce fake profiles, safety tools like emergency contact features and location sharing, in-app educational resources about safe dating practices, background check options that users could choose to run on potential dates.
The foundation’s efforts bore fruit.
In November 2023, the Colorado legislature passed Melissa’s Law, a landmark piece of legislation requiring dating apps operating in the state to implement specific safety measures.
The law mandated that dating apps verify user identities through government-issued identification or other secure methods.
It required apps to provide users with safety resources and education about meeting strangers.
It established an emergency panic button feature that would immediately alert authorities if a user felt they were in danger during a date.
And it required apps to conduct and disclose background checks on users who had been convicted of violent crimes.
Melissa’s Law became a model for other states.
Within a year, similar legislation was being considered or passed in California, New York, Texas, and a dozen other states.
The dating app industry initially resisted these regulations, arguing they were costly to implement and might discourage people from using their services, but public pressure was overwhelming.
After the Vincent Crawford case and several similar cases of online dating murders that received national attention, people demanded better protections.
The FBI also took action.
They established a task force specifically focused on predators who use online dating platforms to find victims.
This task force worked across state lines to identify patterns of suspicious disappearances and connect cases that might be the work of the same perpetrator.
The task force credited Melissa’s case with raising awareness of this type of crime and providing a blueprint for how to investigate it effectively.
One year after Melissa’s murder, in April 2024, Melissa’s Foundation hosted its first annual safety summit.
The event was held in Denver and attracted more than 2,000 attendees from across the country.
The keynote speaker was Detective Sarah Ramirez, who had retired from the Denver Police Department to focus on teaching and advocacy work around violence against women.
Ramirez spoke about the investigation into Vincent Crawford and the lessons learned from the case.
“We have to change how we think about online dating,” Ramirez told the audience.
“It’s not just harmless swiping and casual meetings.
For predators, these apps are hunting grounds.
They provide access to potential victims in a way that would have been impossible before the internet.
We need to be smart.
We need to be careful, and we need to look out for each other.
” The summit included panel discussions on technology and safety, presentations on psychology and manipulation tactics, and workshops on self-defense and risk assessment.
Survivors of attempted abductions and assaults shared their stories.
Law enforcement officials from multiple agencies discussed best practices for investigating crimes involving online dating.
Representatives from dating app companies explained their safety initiatives and listened to feedback from users about additional protections that were needed.
Melissa’s Law had already shown measurable results by this time.
Since its implementation, 47 individuals had been flagged by the background check system for having violent criminal histories.
Three of those 47 had convictions for sexual assault or domestic violence.
By preventing these individuals from accessing dating apps in Colorado, the law potentially saved lives.
The emergency panic button feature had been activated successfully 12 times in dangerous situations, allowing police to respond quickly and rescue women who felt threatened during dates.
Vincent Crawford remained in prison, housed in administrative segregation at Colorado State Penitentiary.
He had given several interviews to forensic psychologists and criminologists who were studying his case.
The interviews were conducted with the approval of the victims’ families, who hoped that understanding Vincent’s psychology might help prevent future cases.
Vincent was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder and antisocial personality disorder.
Psychologists described him as a textbook psychopath, someone completely lacking in empathy or remorse.
In the interviews, Vincent showed no regret for his actions.
He spoke about his crimes with pride, viewing himself as superior to both his victims and the investigators who had caught him.
When asked why he had confessed so readily, Vincent explained that he wanted credit for what he had done.
“I’m famous now,” he said matter-of-factly.
“That’s what I wanted.
People will study my case for decades.
I’ll be remembered long after most people have forgotten.
” This need for recognition and fame was typical of many serial killers.
They craved attention and notoriety, viewing their crimes as accomplishments to be celebrated rather than atrocities to be ashamed of.
Vincent’s lack of insight into the depravity of his actions was profound.
He genuinely believed he was special, that he had done something noteworthy.
The psychological studies conducted on Vincent Crawford added to the body of research on serial predators.
His case became a teaching example in criminal justice and psychology programs.
Students studied how he selected victims, how he manipulated them, and how he was eventually caught.
The case highlighted the importance of digital forensics in modern investigations and the need for law enforcement to understand technology as well as traditional investigative techniques.
Denver Children’s Hospital honored Melissa’s memory by creating the Melissa Chen Memorial Scholarship.
The scholarship was awarded annually to a nursing student who demonstrated exceptional compassion and dedication to pediatric care.
The first recipient was announced in May 2024, a young woman named Sarah Martinez, who had been inspired to become a nurse after reading about Melissa’s story.
“I want to help children the way Melissa did,” >> >> Sarah said at the scholarship award ceremony.
“I want to make a difference the way she did, and I promise to live my life in a way that honors her memory.
” Red Rocks Park, where Melissa and Vincent had their second date, >> >> installed a memorial bench in her honor.
The bench was placed along one of the hiking trails with a view of the dramatic red sandstone formations.
A plaque was mounted on the bench with an inscription, “In memory of Melissa Chen and all who trusted too soon.
May those who sit here remember to trust wisely.
” The bench became a place of reflection for many people.
Hikers would stop to rest there and read the plaque.
Some would leave flowers or notes.
The memorial served as a reminder of the fragility of life and the importance of vigilance.
Katie Morrison visited the bench regularly, often bringing Bailey, Melissa’s dog, who had been adopted by Katie after Melissa’s death.
Katie would sit on the bench and talk to Melissa, telling her about the foundation’s work and about how many women they had helped.
“I hope you’re proud of what we’re doing,” Katie would say.
“We’re saving lives in your name.
We’re making sure you didn’t die for nothing.
” The case continued to receive media attention years after Vincent Crawford’s conviction.
Multiple true crime documentaries were produced, each examining different aspects of the case.
48 Hours aired a special titled The Tinder Predator.
20/20 presented an in-depth investigation called Swiping for Murder.
Dateline NBC produced a 2-hour special called The Nurse and the Monster.
A podcast series called Swipe Left for Murder became one of the most downloaded true crime podcasts of 2024, with 12 episodes examining every detail of Vincent Crawford’s crimes.
Netflix announced plans for a limited documentary series about the case, with cooperation from the victims’ families.
The series would tell the stories of all six women, not just focusing on how they died, but celebrating how they lived.
The families hoped the series would humanize the victims, showing them as real people with dreams and hopes, rather than just statistics in a crime story.
As time passed, the initial shock and horror of the case began to fade from public consciousness.
But for the families of the victims, the pain never truly diminished.
Robert and Linda Chen struggled with depression and grief that would never fully heal.
They attended therapy regularly, trying to find ways to live with the loss of their only child.
Some days were better than others.
Some days they could smile, remembering happy moments with Melissa.
Other days, the grief was overwhelming and they couldn’t get out of bed.
They found comfort in the work of Melissa’s foundation.
Every time they received a letter from a young woman saying she had made safer choices because of their educational programs, they felt Melissa’s legacy was making a difference.
Every time a new state passed legislation inspired by Melissa’s Law, they felt their daughter’s death had meaning beyond the tragedy.
But they would have given anything, traded any accomplishment or recognition, to have Melissa back.
To hear her voice one more time, to hug her one more time, to tell her they loved her one more time.
Vincent Crawford would spend the rest of his life in prison.
He would never see the sky without bars in the way.
He would never feel grass beneath his feet.
He would never experience freedom or joy or human connection again.
He would grow old in a cell, forgotten by the world he had so desperately wanted to impress.
His name would be remembered only as an example of evil, a cautionary tale about the monsters who hide behind normal faces.
Melissa Chen’s story became a teaching moment for a generation of young people about the realities of online dating.
Her beautiful smile in the photos that circulated in the media became a symbol of both the promise and the peril of modern romance.
She represented the hope of finding love and connection in a digital age, but also the dangers that lurked behind fake profiles and charming messages.
The question that haunted everyone who knew Melissa was could this have been prevented? If the dating apps had required identity verification, would Vincent Crawford have been able to create fake profiles? If Melissa had video chatted with Derek Hoffman before meeting him in person, would she have noticed something wrong? If she had told more people about her plans, if she had insisted on meeting in public places for more dates before going to his apartment, if she had trusted her instincts when red flags appeared, would she still be alive? These questions had no satisfying answers.
Victim blaming was not productive or fair.
Melissa had not done anything wrong.
She had been cautious within reason.
She had told Katie her plans.
She had checked in regularly.
She had met Derek in public twice before agreeing to go to his apartment.
She had been careful, but Vincent Crawford was more skilled at manipulation than Melissa was at detecting it.
He had spent years perfecting his methods.
He knew exactly what to say and do to make women feel safe when they were in mortal danger.
The broader lesson was about society’s vulnerability in the digital age.
Technology had connected people in unprecedented ways, allowing individuals to meet potential partners they never would have encountered in their normal lives.
This was largely positive.
Countless happy couples had met through dating apps, but the technology had also created new opportunities for predators.
The same features that made dating apps convenient, the ability to create profiles quickly, the ease of communication with strangers, the normalization of meeting people you know nothing about, also made them dangerous in the wrong hands.
The challenge moving forward was finding ways to maintain the benefits of online dating while minimizing the risks.
Melissa’s Law and similar legislation were steps in the right direction.
Identity verification made it harder to create fake profiles.
Emergency features gave users tools to protect themselves.
Educational campaigns raised awareness of manipulation tactics and warning signs, but no system would ever be perfect.
Determined predators would always find ways to adapt and circumvent protections.
The ultimate defense was education and awareness, teaching people to be skeptical, to trust their instincts, to prioritize safety over romance, to tell friends and family their plans, and to recognize manipulation tactics.
The message that came from Melissa’s story was simple, but vital.
Trust wisely.
Be cautious.
Look out for each other.
Five years after Melissa Chen’s murder, in March 2028, Melissa’s Foundation published a report on the impact of their work.
The statistics were impressive.
Educational programs had reached more than 150,000 young adults at high schools, colleges, and universities across the country.
Melissa’s Law had been in whole or part by 32 states.
Dating apps had implemented safety features that were now industry standard.
And most importantly, the foundation had documented 23 cases where women had recognized warning signs because of their programs and had avoided potentially dangerous situations.
23 women who might have become victims were safe because they had learned from Melissa’s story.
But the report also acknowledged the ongoing challenges.
Online dating murders continued to occur.
Predators continued to exploit vulnerable people.
The battle against this type of crime was far from over.
As long as people sought connection through digital platforms, there would be those who used those platforms for evil.
The work of Melissa’s Foundation and organizations like it would need to continue indefinitely.
Robert and Linda Chen, now in their late 60s, continued to lead the Foundation.
It had become their life’s purpose, the way they had chosen to honor their daughter, and create meaning from tragedy.
They spoke at conferences, testified before legislatures, and met with families of other victims.
They had turned their grief into action, their pain into protection for others.
When asked how they found the strength to continue this work, Linda Chen had a simple answer.
Melissa saved children’s lives.
Now we save lives in Melissa’s name.
It’s what she would have wanted us to do.
It’s how we keep her spirit alive.
The memory of Melissa Chen, the pediatric nurse with the warm smile and the kind heart, lived on not just in the hearts of those who loved her, but in the lives she continued to save through the Foundation that bore her name.
Her death had been senseless and cruel, but her legacy was one of protection, education, and hope.
This story, like all true crime stories, forces us to confront uncomfortable truths about the world we live in.
Evil exists.
Predators walk among us wearing masks of normalcy.
The people we trust can sometimes be the most dangerous.
But these dark truths are balanced by light.
The dedication of law enforcement officers who never gave up on finding justice for Melissa.
The love of family and friends who turned their grief into meaningful change.
The courage of survivors who shared their stories to help others.
The compassion of communities that rallied together to support victims’ families.
The work of advocates who pushed for legislative changes that made society safer.
Melissa Chen wanted to make the world a better place.
She did that through her work as a nurse, caring for sick children with compassion and skill.
And in death, she continued to make the world better, sparking changes that protected countless women from suffering her fate.
Her story ends in tragedy, >> >> but her impact continues in triumph.
The legacy of Melissa Chen is this.
Love wisely.
Trust carefully.
Support fiercely.
And never stop fighting to protect those who cannot protect themselves.
Every person who swipes on a dating app should know her name.
Every parent should tell their children her story.
Every friend should look out for warning signs that something is wrong.
Melissa Chen’s name should be remembered not just as a victim, but as a catalyst for change.
As a symbol of how individual tragedy can inspire collective action.
As proof that even in death, a life of compassion and service can continue to save others.
This is the story of Melissa Chen.
A nurse who saved lives.
A daughter who was loved.
A friend who was cherished.
A woman who deserved so much more than the fate she met.
May her memory be a blessing.
May her story be a warning.
And may the changes she inspired continue to protect the vulnerable from those who would do them harm.
He’s an Australian-born man, non-indigenous.
He’s aged between 30 and 34, and he’s armed with a knife.
What I’ve just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales.
We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state’s domestic violence death review team.
It’s based on three decades worth of data.
I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us.
We’re losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia.
As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Catley admits, it’s depressing.
But she’s trying.
For 3 years, she’s been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems.
In 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control.
They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.
They introduced a new app called empower you, so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support.
They’ve done blitz operations, mass arresting offenders.
But is it working? That’s the big question.
So for the women living this reality in fear, with abuse, with violent men, what’s next? What do we actually do next? I’m Gemma Bath, and you’re listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world’s most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
We don’t often have politicians on this podcast.
But time and time again, we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs, and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice, or support from our police services.
Yasmin Catley is only in charge of policing and counter-terrorism in New South Wales.
But, we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power, to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow.
Catley comes from a working-class family and grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales.
Her husband is also in politics, and they have three daughters together.
She has been a member of the Australian Labor Party since she was 19.
She started off as an electorate officer in the federal party and worked in several senior ministers’ offices for more than a decade before entering state parliament.
She was elected member for Swansea in 2015.
And from there, she’s worn a number of hats.
Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital, both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter, and as of 2023, Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism, which, of course, is why we’ve invited her on the podcast.
Here’s our conversation with Yasmin Catley.
Yasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations.
Can you give us a bit of a background on your career because I’m fascinated how someone went from being a librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism.
I know there’s a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.
>> Yeah, well, I still pinch myself, too, quite frankly.
Um look, I did join the Labor Party when I was 19.
I come from a working-class family.
My dad was a seafarer.
So, politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house and uh he was a member of the party, so I joined as well.
Um I remained a member of the party.
I I should tell you I was a member of the Swansea branch.
There were about uh 76 men and me.
>> Really? >> Yes.
Yeah, you can imagine a 19-year-old >> 19-year-old [clears throat] woman.
>> And guess what? I became the secretary of the branch real quick and that’s because uh what do you do? You give the woman all the work.
>> Oh.
>> Typical, right? >> Don’t make my blood boil.
>> [laughter] >> Oh, well.
You’d be boiling every day if you If I could tell you half my stories, Gemma.
Um you know, and then um I did I worked in public libraries uh for most of my career and then at the I did almost 10 years at the Refugee Review Tribunal, so I moved into Commonwealth public service libraries and um I loved it.
I really enjoyed my job and uh it was after my third child uh I was living in Dulwich Hill with my husband and the three girls and uh Anthony Albanese was my local member and he said, “Do you want to come and work in my electorate office?” And I did.
And uh but then we moved back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combet uh in 2014, the Labor Party was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said, “You should do that.
” And he encouraged me to do that.
And can I say it’s the greatest honor of my life representing my community, the people that I live, work, and play with.
>> So, it sounds like you know, being the member for Swansea is is something you’re really passionate about.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What about the police and counter-terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world? And was that something that you were excited about when you got tapped to do it? >> Well, Gemma, I’d spent most of my life trying to avoid police like most [laughter] people, quite frankly.
So, as a consequence of that, I didn’t know a lot about it.
Um but you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learn.
That’s your job to learn the portfolio.
You don’t need to be an expert from day one and no one can say I’m not a hard worker.
So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it.
I’ve traveled this state meeting police right across the state seeing what they do, the type of work they do.
I don’t think that there’s a command that I haven’t been at at least once, many several times.
I’m really invested in it and I’m invested in it because I don’t think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community like I do today.
And that is day-to-day, day in day out.
Police is intersection 24 hours a day into community in New South Wales is probably the only organization that has that closeness and therefore that’s how serious it is and how important it is.
So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.
>> Minister, exactly what is your job? Because it’s a very different role to like the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them.
So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Look, my job as police minister is to ensure that the New South Wales police is resourced to do their job which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
>> Obviously it’s policy direction as well like recruitment, the recruitment policy for instance getting more boots on the ground making sure police is staying within the organization so reducing the attrition rate.
Obviously their pay and conditions of work are very important to me.
If we don’t look after police, they will walk out the door.
So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well-being is center and mind of everything every decision that I make and of course legislation because they enforce the law.
So working hand in glove with the commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them on the ground.
>> So, the commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you’ll help take that into legislation and law.
>> Sure.
Look, the commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.
>> Really? >> Yeah, yeah.
We’re very close and and you have to be to do the job right.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that’s my view and you know, I’ll whoever is in charge of whatever we’re dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Ultimately, that’s the commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.
>> You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticized the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
>> Can you tell me about that? What what did you mean by that? >> Uh it’s about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work their pay and working conditions.
Capping police officers’ wages sent their wages backwards.
And now, uh like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.
>> Really? >> Yep.
So, police were leaving in droves.
>> And I mean, I guess that means we’re losing quality police officers.
>> Well trained, that’s right.
Like police officers at 10, 11, 12 years like in fact, um I love data and I love evidence.
So, when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in 2023-24, um I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving.
So, it was sort of between that 9 and 11 years, that’s when police were leaving.
Of course, they’re the most experienced, they’re the ones you exactly want to keep.
The opposite.
So, we had to look at how we’re going to keep those.
So, we devised um their their pay and conditions, the the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first and or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal, which was I think it was unanimously voted in.
So, they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
But, the other thing was um not only were they not paid properly, they didn’t feel supported as a result of that.
And there was no wrapping, you know, well-being around them.
We now have a well-being unit within the New South Wales Police, and that’s to specifically case manage individual police officers.
So, we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, “Hey, you really should take some leave, you know?” This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police.
But, it was outsourced to some, you know, external uh works compensation scheme.
And police lost sight.
They had like internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer.
That’s not how you look after people.
That’s not how you look after a workforce.
I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their pay and conditions, and police aren’t any different for me, and that’s the one thing they know I’ve got their back on.
>> So, would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And and how do you think you’re going? Is is the police force happier? >> Uh look, well, they’re certainly happier.
They’ve got more pay, 100%.
>> [laughter] >> Um and so they should be.
So, they should be.
Then, as I say, they’re now the best paid police in the country.
Um they they they know that I’ve got their back, and I do.
I genuinely have their back because if we don’t look after our New South Wales Police officers that do a job like no other.
Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it.
And it’s a big job, [clears throat] you know? Like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life.
But, equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you’ve helped someone out, you’ve, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis, or indeed save someone’s life.
So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days, but I think ultimately when I talk to police, they say to me, “It’s the best job ever and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us.
” And I’ll tell you what, um you know, if they do something wrong, if there’s an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that’s going to happen, then we should call that out.
And [clears throat] I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also uh believe in that.
But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they’re good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.
>> Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with? >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Lots of surprises, um good surprises and not so good surprises.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I I think I didn’t realize um at all that police were um so depended upon across community 24 hours a day.
And people think that they uh you know, they’re mental health uh practitioner, a youth counselor, uh a DV, you know, counselor.
Um because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was “Why aren’t the police doing more?” Like that’s how I was being questioned.
Uh “Why aren’t the police fixing that? Why aren’t the police doing this?” >> Mhm.
>> And I just was this set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, “Hold up.
These people are law enforcement officers.
They They can’t be everything to everyone.
That’s not how this works.
Other uh departments need to also take some responsibility here.
So, we need to work collaboratively together to you know, be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly, but the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone.
That’s not how this works.
And already we’re seeing some changes in uh the mental health incidents.
So, we’ve got we’re sign going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that uh we can have the right person right care.
So, that’s fantastic.
Um in terms of domestic violence, of course, we’ve got the WDV case workers now working in police stations in some areas.
So, people like right next door to a police officer, they’re sitting working as a team.
So, that’s fantastic working very closely with the sector.
Um and there’s other examples as well.
So, it’s just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, “Whoa, hold on a minute.
This doesn’t seem right.
” Um and that’s just being practical and being a community member myself.
And um we’re seeing some And and you know, police like the fact that um there’s someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don’t have to be everything to everyone.
Um so, that was a surprise to me.
Um but good surprise, like real good surprise, is uh the the variance within the organization.
Like, it’s a big organization.
And you can have 17 different careers within the one organization.
It’s amazing.
Like, I I strongly recommend people check it out if they’re looking for a career change.
It’s um you can be anything you want in there.
You know, you just got to you know, go through the the the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales police.
And there’s never been a better time to sign up.
Always recruiting them in Australia.
>> [laughter] >> I’m dedicated, Gemma.
>> You’ve been in this role for 3 years now.
How do you think you’re tracking? What’s your report card on yourself? >> Aw, that’s a bit tricky.
[laughter] I I usually rely on others to do that for me.
Look, I feel um there’s always more work to do, 100% and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that’s the sort of police force we want.
We want the police force of the future.
And if we just keep doing what we’re doing, then um we won’t be that workforce of the future.
And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who who are signed up 40 years ago.
We have to remember that.
So, it’s important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there.
How am I reporting? Okay, I’m not trying to avoid the question.
>> We usually are our own >> [laughter] >> our own best critic, so >> Uh yeah, well, that is true.
Um look, I think that I’m doing okay.
Um I’m still there.
I mean, uh you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long.
Um well, I’ve outlasted most of those people who said that.
So, that’s a positive.
>> [laughter] >> So, there you go.
>> After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men’s violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men’s violence against women.
We talk about it way too often.
Um way too many cases, horrific cases.
We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle, and like you mentioned before, it’s a a systemic issue.
It’s not just police, it’s not just courts, it’s kind of a multi-faceted area.
How do you feel about the progress that we’ve seen in that space since you’ve taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV? >> No.
No is the answer to that.
>> is that? >> And I say that um with a very heavy heart.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect, uh than there is today.
And that in itself says what in the bloody hell is going on? >> Yeah.
>> It’s a problem.
Yeah.
Look, um, in saying that though let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is, um, certainly as I say from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well.
So, I’ll take you through that if if that’s okay.
So, they’ve got a couple of operations, which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Amarok.
Um, now that has, um, occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results and I I will read them if you don’t mind.
Um, Operation Amarok I should just explain to you is a targeted operation uh, targeting high-risk domestic violence offenders.
So, New South Wales Police have, uh, the Domestic Violence Command.
It is the own first and only in the country and it is specifically designed to look at those uh, repeat offenders, those recidivist offenders domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this.
They also assist every command right around the state.
So, if there’s a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations.
So, just a couple of weeks ago, uh, they ran for 4 days, 993 arrests, 2,063 charges.
14,318 ADVO compliance checks, 391 breaches identified, 94 firearms and 48 other weapons were seized.
I mean, isn’t that staggering? In 4 days, almost 1,000 arrests.
With It’s a bit depressing, really.
I know it’s good news, but it’s it’s a bit depressing.
I agree.
I agree.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, in one state, might I add, might I remind listeners we’re talking about just New South Wales here.
>> Exactly.
And I I assume other states are doing, you know, something similar or if not, you know, something the same.
But what I might add is, it’s not just unique to New South Wales.
It is across this country.
Um and that that too is very concerning.
Um I honestly believe that um you know, in addition to that, there’s another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of um commands themselves.
So, much more targeting local areas.
Again, we see numbers that just I find staggering.
Uh we also have, because of other legislative changes that we’ve made around bail and the like, we’ve got um more people, more males, on remand than we have ever had.
They’re bursting at the seams and a third of those uh uh high-risk domestic violence perpetrators that are on remand.
>> On remand, yeah.
So, they are locked up.
Um but we are still seeing this awful amount of um you know, breaches uh right around the state when Operation Amarok is run.
Now, is it I think um the which is a good thing.
Um Police respond to a domestic violence incident every 3 minutes.
>> That is alarming.
But it’s also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me, uh women are more likely to report.
They feel that they are being heard, that police are responding, and that is a good thing.
>> So, do you think that could be why we’re seeing statistics rise a bit, because women uh are reporting? >> I think anecdotally we can say that until we can get some data.
Like, we’ve got to collect data on this stuff, right? So, if we look at BOCSAR statistics, and they are the independent they record all of the the Bureau of Crime Statistics, they report that for New South Wales.
Uh in most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories, um except for three, uh crime is going down in New South Wales.
New South Wales is the safest state in this country.
Except for domestic violence.
It’s It’s not going up exponentially like it was 3 years ago when I first came in as minister, but it’s still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that’s going up.
Retail crime, which would police again have put in, you know, working with We’re not Don’t need to talk about retail crime, maybe for another day.
But, um but they’re the >> I care about those first two, though.
>> Yeah, 100% me, too.
>> Domestic violence and sexual assault going up, like that’s >> Yeah.
Yeah.
And that’s the trend across the country, as well.
>> The thing, like when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great.
But, then the next thing that comes into my brain is, but then these people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs, and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them getting picked up for, but women are killed in that period.
When they go back home, or when they’re released back into the community, that’s when women are dying.
So, what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that you’ve kind of helped bail laws.
Are we strengthening stuff there? Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches? How do we improve that period of a woman’s life? >> Well, it’s identifying um all of those markers, which you’ve just quite rightly um pointed out.
So, um it can There are certain markers that police will use to profile a, you know, serious domestic violence perpetrator.
Um choking.
Um if you’ve split up, that’s a a a concern.
Um if the the relationship has ceased, and there are others as well that police use to, as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator.
And they need to make sure, obviously, they’ll have an ADVO out against them.
We need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those, which police do do checks on those.
But it’s hard to regulate really bad human behavior is the truth of it.
But I don’t think we should give up.
That doesn’t mean we’re giving up.
Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here.
And DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very very vulnerable situations.
But I would say this.
And this is really important to all those women out there listening.
If you know something, then say something.
I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think it was in late 2023.
So, I was only new to the job.
She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner.
They had split up, but he come back in to the house.
She had a young son.
And she was allegedly murdered in his hands.
Um at at in her flat.
Now, it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused.
And I just say to anyone listening, if you know that that is happening, then please say something.
And I know that can be uncomfortable.
I was only speaking to um someone I know recently, and she told me personally about a friend of hers who um she believed was being abused behind closed doors, and I said, “You have to say something.
” And she said, “Oh, I don’t know how to bring this up with my friend.
” >> Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police? >> Well, I mean, say something to both, quite frankly.
>> Really? >> a hundred Yeah, I do.
>> Can police help though? Like, if I was to go to police and say, “My friend is being choked and abused,” wouldn’t they say, “Okay, well, get your friend to come and report it.
” Like, how is that How How is me reporting that going to help my friend? >> I think this is taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago, and I think if you are reporting something like that, um then police will certainly check it out.
And it may not Let’s be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with, and it will be in a priority.
>> Yeah.
>> But, I think uh and they will address it when >> I can can get to it, but I think >> if you don’t say something and you know something, um it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person’s life.
And I know there are uncomfortable conversations to have, and I know that it’s difficult, and I know that instinctively we probably think, “Oh, we shouldn’t say anything.
” But, this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors, and it still is.
>> Mhm.
>> That is the reality.
It still is.
And even though, you know, I’ve heard many people say, “Oh, you know, it’s not that crime anymore.
It’s um Karen Webb told me, “It’s a silent crime.
” And it is a silent crime.
It has to stop being a silent crime, because I can tell you right now, if 36 footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.
>> Mhm.
Well, that’s the the kind of what we keep coming back to.
It’s like this is an epidemic.
Like why are we not doing more? But you’re saying we’re we’re kind of we’re trying to do more.
>> Well, police are >> Yeah.
Police are are really they’ve got an empower you app now, so you can actually diarize um everything that is occurring in your life and on that app as well, you can also um have a a button to send a message to a friend, I need your help.
Uh it’s in 40 different languages.
Like we are trying everything we can to assist.
You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence.
We’ve made sure that it’s at that level.
Uh that was devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and um you you know, able to be used.
Um there is now the capacity to be able to um if you dial triple zero, you can have a live link with police.
Um a video link with police, so you can talk to them directly.
So we’re working on how we could adapt that into using that in much more just in a safety environment as well.
Again, I go back to technology and how important technology is.
So police are really doing a lot um and I’m really proud that I’m the minister and that that that that is the case.
Um but statistics are statistics and quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.
>> Do you All these things that you’ve talked about, I’m trying to have a bit of hope here.
Have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like do you think that we could push those statistics down? I know that you’re only in charge of police.
It’s such a it’s one jigsaw piece.
But how do we push these statistics down? Like really? >> Yeah, well, we’re certainly arresting and and putting them behind bars.
That’s a statistic that I can tell you is a a statistic of success in a sense like these high-risk perpetrators are behind bars.
Um again, we all have a role to play here.
>> Mhm.
>> We really do.
I think that people need to need to think about um you know, conversations that they have with their friends and support’s great, friendship’s wonderful, but um I think giving them a nudge to to let someone know before it’s too late is is something that the people should think about.
>> Let’s talk about legislation.
Because in 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control as a standalone offense.
Have we seen improvements from that? In the space? >> Yeah, coercive well, we’ve had a number of arrests.
Um which is a positive thing.
It’s um which means the law is working.
Coercive control is the long tail.
It can take quite a long time to for police to be able to um get the body of evidence together to then make the charge.
But every police officer has been trained in it, so that’s a good thing.
But I mean, it’s an insidious way of controlling people.
>> Yeah, but it feels like it’s hard to criminalize.
Like what Like we’ve got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read that was the year to 2024 July, they had 297 reports of coercive control in that year, nine charges, and one conviction.
So it’s like the law’s great, but we’re not seeing the results at the end.
>> Yeah.
I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be um as intended at its best for it like the laws itself to be um used to their full potential.
And it’s only because not because police aren’t trying, it’s awareness, people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behavior as a criminal behavior.
So, it’s certainly educating people.
It’s also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place.
So, I think um we will review it.
It There’s a review mechanism in the legislation and we will review it and we will continue to review it, but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma.
It’s something that I feel very, very strongly about because um you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behavior is also a precursor to homicide.
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