48HRS After 53Y/O Woman Married Her Dubai Lover, She Lost Both Legs After He Messed Her Brakes,Why? – Part 3
So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.
>> Minister, exactly what is your job? Because it’s a very different role to like the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them.
So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Look, my job as police minister is to ensure that the New South Wales police is resourced to do their job which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
>> Obviously it’s policy direction as well like recruitment, the recruitment policy for instance getting more boots on the ground making sure police is staying within the organization so reducing the attrition rate.
Obviously their pay and conditions of work are very important to me.
If we don’t look after police, they will walk out the door.
So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well-being is center and mind of everything every decision that I make and of course legislation because they enforce the law.
So working hand in glove with the commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them on the ground.
>> So, the commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you’ll help take that into legislation and law.
>> Sure.
Look, the commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.
>> Really? >> Yeah, yeah.
We’re very close and and you have to be to do the job right.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that’s my view and you know, I’ll whoever is in charge of whatever we’re dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Ultimately, that’s the commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.
>> You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticized the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
>> Can you tell me about that? What what did you mean by that? >> Uh it’s about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work their pay and working conditions.
Capping police officers’ wages sent their wages backwards.
And now, uh like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.
>> Really? >> Yep.
So, police were leaving in droves.
>> And I mean, I guess that means we’re losing quality police officers.
>> Well trained, that’s right.
Like police officers at 10, 11, 12 years like in fact, um I love data and I love evidence.
So, when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in 2023-24, um I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving.
So, it was sort of between that 9 and 11 years, that’s when police were leaving.
Of course, they’re the most experienced, they’re the ones you exactly want to keep.
The opposite.
So, we had to look at how we’re going to keep those.
So, we devised um their their pay and conditions, the the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first and or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal, which was I think it was unanimously voted in.
So, they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
But, the other thing was um not only were they not paid properly, they didn’t feel supported as a result of that.
And there was no wrapping, you know, well-being around them.
We now have a well-being unit within the New South Wales Police, and that’s to specifically case manage individual police officers.
So, we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, “Hey, you really should take some leave, you know?” This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police.
But, it was outsourced to some, you know, external uh works compensation scheme.
And police lost sight.
They had like internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer.
That’s not how you look after people.
That’s not how you look after a workforce.
I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their pay and conditions, and police aren’t any different for me, and that’s the one thing they know I’ve got their back on.
>> So, would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And and how do you think you’re going? Is is the police force happier? >> Uh look, well, they’re certainly happier.
They’ve got more pay, 100%.
>> [laughter] >> Um and so they should be.
So, they should be.
Then, as I say, they’re now the best paid police in the country.
Um they they they know that I’ve got their back, and I do.
I genuinely have their back because if we don’t look after our New South Wales Police officers that do a job like no other.
Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it.
And it’s a big job, [clears throat] you know? Like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life.
But, equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you’ve helped someone out, you’ve, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis, or indeed save someone’s life.
So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days, but I think ultimately when I talk to police, they say to me, “It’s the best job ever and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us.
” And I’ll tell you what, um you know, if they do something wrong, if there’s an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that’s going to happen, then we should call that out.
And [clears throat] I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also uh believe in that.
But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they’re good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.
>> Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with? >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Lots of surprises, um good surprises and not so good surprises.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I I think I didn’t realize um at all that police were um so depended upon across community 24 hours a day.
And people think that they uh you know, they’re mental health uh practitioner, a youth counselor, uh a DV, you know, counselor.
Um because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was “Why aren’t the police doing more?” Like that’s how I was being questioned.
Uh “Why aren’t the police fixing that? Why aren’t the police doing this?” >> Mhm.
>> And I just was this set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, “Hold up.
These people are law enforcement officers.
They They can’t be everything to everyone.
That’s not how this works.
Other uh departments need to also take some responsibility here.
So, we need to work collaboratively together to you know, be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly, but the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone.
That’s not how this works.
And already we’re seeing some changes in uh the mental health incidents.
So, we’ve got we’re sign going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that uh we can have the right person right care.
So, that’s fantastic.
Um in terms of domestic violence, of course, we’ve got the WDV case workers now working in police stations in some areas.
So, people like right next door to a police officer, they’re sitting working as a team.
So, that’s fantastic working very closely with the sector.
Um and there’s other examples as well.
So, it’s just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, “Whoa, hold on a minute.
This doesn’t seem right.
” Um and that’s just being practical and being a community member myself.
And um we’re seeing some And and you know, police like the fact that um there’s someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don’t have to be everything to everyone.
Um so, that was a surprise to me.
Um but good surprise, like real good surprise, is uh the the variance within the organization.
Like, it’s a big organization.
And you can have 17 different careers within the one organization.
It’s amazing.
Like, I I strongly recommend people check it out if they’re looking for a career change.
It’s um you can be anything you want in there.
You know, you just got to you know, go through the the the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales police.
And there’s never been a better time to sign up.
Always recruiting them in Australia.
>> [laughter] >> I’m dedicated, Gemma.
>> You’ve been in this role for 3 years now.
How do you think you’re tracking? What’s your report card on yourself? >> Aw, that’s a bit tricky.
[laughter] I I usually rely on others to do that for me.
Look, I feel um there’s always more work to do, 100% and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that’s the sort of police force we want.
We want the police force of the future.
And if we just keep doing what we’re doing, then um we won’t be that workforce of the future.
And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who who are signed up 40 years ago.
We have to remember that.
So, it’s important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there.
How am I reporting? Okay, I’m not trying to avoid the question.
>> We usually are our own >> [laughter] >> our own best critic, so >> Uh yeah, well, that is true.
Um look, I think that I’m doing okay.
Um I’m still there.
I mean, uh you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long.
Um well, I’ve outlasted most of those people who said that.
So, that’s a positive.
>> [laughter] >> So, there you go.
>> After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men’s violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men’s violence against women.
We talk about it way too often.
Um way too many cases, horrific cases.
We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle, and like you mentioned before, it’s a a systemic issue.
It’s not just police, it’s not just courts, it’s kind of a multi-faceted area.
How do you feel about the progress that we’ve seen in that space since you’ve taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV? >> No.
No is the answer to that.
>> is that? >> And I say that um with a very heavy heart.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect, uh than there is today.
And that in itself says what in the bloody hell is going on? >> Yeah.
>> It’s a problem.
Yeah.
Look, um, in saying that though let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is, um, certainly as I say from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well.
So, I’ll take you through that if if that’s okay.
So, they’ve got a couple of operations, which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Amarok.
Um, now that has, um, occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results and I I will read them if you don’t mind.
Um, Operation Amarok I should just explain to you is a targeted operation uh, targeting high-risk domestic violence offenders.
So, New South Wales Police have, uh, the Domestic Violence Command.
It is the own first and only in the country and it is specifically designed to look at those uh, repeat offenders, those recidivist offenders domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this.
They also assist every command right around the state.
So, if there’s a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations.
So, just a couple of weeks ago, uh, they ran for 4 days, 993 arrests, 2,063 charges.
14,318 ADVO compliance checks, 391 breaches identified, 94 firearms and 48 other weapons were seized.
I mean, isn’t that staggering? In 4 days, almost 1,000 arrests.
With It’s a bit depressing, really.
I know it’s good news, but it’s it’s a bit depressing.
I agree.
I agree.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, in one state, might I add, might I remind listeners we’re talking about just New South Wales here.
>> Exactly.
And I I assume other states are doing, you know, something similar or if not, you know, something the same.
But what I might add is, it’s not just unique to New South Wales.
It is across this country.
Um and that that too is very concerning.
Um I honestly believe that um you know, in addition to that, there’s another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of um commands themselves.
So, much more targeting local areas.
Again, we see numbers that just I find staggering.
Uh we also have, because of other legislative changes that we’ve made around bail and the like, we’ve got um more people, more males, on remand than we have ever had.
They’re bursting at the seams and a third of those uh uh high-risk domestic violence perpetrators that are on remand.
>> On remand, yeah.
So, they are locked up.
Um but we are still seeing this awful amount of um you know, breaches uh right around the state when Operation Amarok is run.
Now, is it I think um the which is a good thing.
Um Police respond to a domestic violence incident every 3 minutes.
>> That is alarming.
But it’s also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me, uh women are more likely to report.
They feel that they are being heard, that police are responding, and that is a good thing.
>> So, do you think that could be why we’re seeing statistics rise a bit, because women uh are reporting? >> I think anecdotally we can say that until we can get some data.
Like, we’ve got to collect data on this stuff, right? So, if we look at BOCSAR statistics, and they are the independent they record all of the the Bureau of Crime Statistics, they report that for New South Wales.
Uh in most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories, um except for three, uh crime is going down in New South Wales.
New South Wales is the safest state in this country.
Except for domestic violence.
It’s It’s not going up exponentially like it was 3 years ago when I first came in as minister, but it’s still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that’s going up.
Retail crime, which would police again have put in, you know, working with We’re not Don’t need to talk about retail crime, maybe for another day.
But, um but they’re the >> I care about those first two, though.
>> Yeah, 100% me, too.
>> Domestic violence and sexual assault going up, like that’s >> Yeah.
Yeah.
And that’s the trend across the country, as well.
>> The thing, like when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great.
But, then the next thing that comes into my brain is, but then these people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs, and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them getting picked up for, but women are killed in that period.
When they go back home, or when they’re released back into the community, that’s when women are dying.
So, what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that you’ve kind of helped bail laws.
Are we strengthening stuff there? Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches? How do we improve that period of a woman’s life? >> Well, it’s identifying um all of those markers, which you’ve just quite rightly um pointed out.
So, um it can There are certain markers that police will use to profile a, you know, serious domestic violence perpetrator.
Um choking.
Um if you’ve split up, that’s a a a concern.
Um if the the relationship has ceased, and there are others as well that police use to, as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator.
And they need to make sure, obviously, they’ll have an ADVO out against them.
We need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those, which police do do checks on those.
But it’s hard to regulate really bad human behavior is the truth of it.
But I don’t think we should give up.
That doesn’t mean we’re giving up.
Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here.
And DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very very vulnerable situations.
But I would say this.
And this is really important to all those women out there listening.
If you know something, then say something.
I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think it was in late 2023.
So, I was only new to the job.
She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner.
They had split up, but he come back in to the house.
She had a young son.
And she was allegedly murdered in his hands.
Um at at in her flat.
Now, it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused.
And I just say to anyone listening, if you know that that is happening, then please say something.
And I know that can be uncomfortable.
I was only speaking to um someone I know recently, and she told me personally about a friend of hers who um she believed was being abused behind closed doors, and I said, “You have to say something.
” And she said, “Oh, I don’t know how to bring this up with my friend.
” >> Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police? >> Well, I mean, say something to both, quite frankly.
>> Really? >> a hundred Yeah, I do.
>> Can police help though? Like, if I was to go to police and say, “My friend is being choked and abused,” wouldn’t they say, “Okay, well, get your friend to come and report it.
” Like, how is that How How is me reporting that going to help my friend? >> I think this is taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago, and I think if you are reporting something like that, um then police will certainly check it out.
And it may not Let’s be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with, and it will be in a priority.
>> Yeah.
>> But, I think uh and they will address it when >> I can can get to it, but I think >> if you don’t say something and you know something, um it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person’s life.
And I know there are uncomfortable conversations to have, and I know that it’s difficult, and I know that instinctively we probably think, “Oh, we shouldn’t say anything.
” But, this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors, and it still is.
>> Mhm.
>> That is the reality.
It still is.
And even though, you know, I’ve heard many people say, “Oh, you know, it’s not that crime anymore.
It’s um Karen Webb told me, “It’s a silent crime.
” And it is a silent crime.
It has to stop being a silent crime, because I can tell you right now, if 36 footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.
>> Mhm.
Well, that’s the the kind of what we keep coming back to.
It’s like this is an epidemic.
Like why are we not doing more? But you’re saying we’re we’re kind of we’re trying to do more.
>> Well, police are >> Yeah.
Police are are really they’ve got an empower you app now, so you can actually diarize um everything that is occurring in your life and on that app as well, you can also um have a a button to send a message to a friend, I need your help.
Uh it’s in 40 different languages.
Like we are trying everything we can to assist.
You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence.
We’ve made sure that it’s at that level.
Uh that was devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and um you you know, able to be used.
Um there is now the capacity to be able to um if you dial triple zero, you can have a live link with police.
Um a video link with police, so you can talk to them directly.
So we’re working on how we could adapt that into using that in much more just in a safety environment as well.
Again, I go back to technology and how important technology is.
So police are really doing a lot um and I’m really proud that I’m the minister and that that that that is the case.
Um but statistics are statistics and quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.
>> Do you All these things that you’ve talked about, I’m trying to have a bit of hope here.
Have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like do you think that we could push those statistics down? I know that you’re only in charge of police.
It’s such a it’s one jigsaw piece.
But how do we push these statistics down? Like really? >> Yeah, well, we’re certainly arresting and and putting them behind bars.
That’s a statistic that I can tell you is a a statistic of success in a sense like these high-risk perpetrators are behind bars.
Um again, we all have a role to play here.
>> Mhm.
>> We really do.
I think that people need to need to think about um you know, conversations that they have with their friends and support’s great, friendship’s wonderful, but um I think giving them a nudge to to let someone know before it’s too late is is something that the people should think about.
>> Let’s talk about legislation.
Because in 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control as a standalone offense.
Have we seen improvements from that? In the space? >> Yeah, coercive well, we’ve had a number of arrests.
Um which is a positive thing.
It’s um which means the law is working.
Coercive control is the long tail.
It can take quite a long time to for police to be able to um get the body of evidence together to then make the charge.
But every police officer has been trained in it, so that’s a good thing.
But I mean, it’s an insidious way of controlling people.
>> Yeah, but it feels like it’s hard to criminalize.
Like what Like we’ve got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read that was the year to 2024 July, they had 297 reports of coercive control in that year, nine charges, and one conviction.
So it’s like the law’s great, but we’re not seeing the results at the end.
>> Yeah.
I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be um as intended at its best for it like the laws itself to be um used to their full potential.
And it’s only because not because police aren’t trying, it’s awareness, people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behavior as a criminal behavior.
So, it’s certainly educating people.
It’s also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place.
So, I think um we will review it.
It There’s a review mechanism in the legislation and we will review it and we will continue to review it, but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma.
It’s something that I feel very, very strongly about because um you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behavior is also a precursor to homicide.
So, again, the more people and particularly women know about coercive control and the fact that it is a criminal behavior and is treated as such in New South Wales, then I think the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to that piece of legislation.
>> Am I right in saying that you’re also trying to make covert stalking a criminal offense? >> Oh, yeah, we have.
That’s right.
Yeah, 100%.
So, what we’re seeing is in vehicles, men being able to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to track women as well, obviously on their phones or again in their vehicles.
Yeah, so stalking is a it will absolutely be a a covert offense as well, as it should be.
>> So, that’s something that we’re still waiting to kind of go through everything it needs to go through or it is an offense? >> It It’s It’s in our legislation that just went through the house in New South Wales.
So, it I’m Soon.
Soon.
Very soon.
Be a second or two soon.
It’s hard to believe as a woman that, you know, you would be surveilled like this by the person that you most trust.
But the fact we need legislation for it shows it’s happening so much.
>> Yes.
>> That’s right.
That’s right.
And with, you know, consequences that can be murder.
>> Mhm.
>> Shocking.
>> Sexual assault, let’s talk about that.
We know that it’s an area that’s notoriously hard to get convictions in.
We also know that New South Wales police have a massive backlog of sexual assault investigations.
Were you aware of how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio? >> Uh look, no, I wasn’t, but it’s shocking.
Um I just I find, you know, societies, the whole of society with sexual assault, I just find it mind-blowing.
I can’t believe it.
I can’t believe those statistics are still on the rise.
Um what is going on out there with our young men? I don’t understand.
Well, not just young men, it’s just men generally.
And I think that we need to have a podcast chat about that at some point, too, quite frankly.
Being a girl mom, >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Feel you.
It’s not all men, but it’s enough men.
>> No, no, that’s exactly right.
Um and, you know, I don’t want to criticize all blokes.
I mean, you know, lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke that blokes are women champions, too, which are fantastic.
But um sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just very, very concerning.
Um the backlogs um with police uh you know, it’s not okay.
Uh we will continue to work though to get through those.
The people who are working on those cases take them very, very seriously, thank goodness.
And that’s important.
I think I don’t think it’s always been the case that women have felt that they have been believed.
I think that’s a fact, so I don’t think I’m, you know, saying anything that’s not already out there.
And that in itself is shocking.
Uh so I think it’s very important that they at least feel believed.
And I’m hopeful again that that that is why we are seeing an increase because people are coming forward.
Uh police have in recent times developed SAARO, which is a sexual assault reporting tool.
Uh so you can if you’ve been the victim of a sexual assault, you can now report that crime on SAARO.
And uh you can remain anonymous if you choose.
But then if some yeah, to report the incident.
But then sometime down the track you might want to actually uh prosecute and take that to police.
>> So you can make that choice later.
>> Yeah, which I think is appropriate.
>> Well, a lot of people don’t make the decision until uh you know, years sometimes down the track.
>> Spot on.
That’s right.
So that’s why I mean I think that’s appropriate that you’ve been able to do that.
So that’s a good thing.
Um now and that those statistics are added now to the Bureau of Statistics, the the ones we talked of earlier.
So I think that that is um a positive as well.
Um but you know, again police are at the crisis end and it’s the societal problems that we’ve got to try to look at.
Why is this happening? Why are Why do people feel Why do men feel it’s okay to assault a woman at any time, anywhere.
It’s >> So those wait times are you suggesting that they’re so long because there’s so many that they have to get to? >> Well, it’s >> it a it’s a men issue of so many instances rather than a police not keeping up with the the number of reports? >> I think that it’s probably a bit of both.
>> Yeah.
>> Quite frankly.
Uh we have to we we’re 2 1/2 thousand cops short.
And uh we need to get more boots on the ground.
And I’m super focused on that.
And that’s why the recruiting is is going well at the moment, which is fantastic.
But um >> >> we need more boots on the ground will mean more cases will be solved and and that’s just sheer maths, right? Up next, I ask the New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism about the Bondi terror attack and what her movements were on that day.
Let’s move on to the December 2025 terror attack on Bondi Beach.
Firstly, I want to ask you, where were you when that was happening and and what was your reaction as as it started to kind of unfold? >> I was at home in the Hunter and um the commissioner called me probably a few minutes after he’d been told and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney.
Um horror pure horror like everyone else.
Mhm.
Disbelief.
Um like, is this really happening on our iconic beach? Just before Christmas.
Like, it was shocking.
Absolutely shocking.
And um obviously I was being updated whilst I was driving to Sydney and >> you drive to? Where were you coming to? >> I went straight to police headquarters.
>> Okay.
>> And met the premier there and the police commissioner there and we got a full briefing.
And then we did a media stand-up and then we went straight to Bondi.
Um we went to the police station down there.
Uh which ironically um the Waverley police station is being renovated.
So, all of the police were working at Bondi.
>> Yeah.
>> Most of them anyway because of the renovation going ahead Rose Bay and and Bondi.
So, there were a lot of police there as I say just not necessarily through just through the fact that this renovation is underway.
And as we walked around there, there were police officers from everywhere.
Police officers just put on their uniform and got in the car and drove to Bondi.
They didn’t ring up and ask.
They just got in the car and they drove to Bondi.
There was one police officer there from the Hunter.
>> They’d gotten in the car when you did.
>> Probably.
You know, that’s the sort of quality of people that we have in the New South Wales police.
>> So, in the wake of this tragedy, you managed to get a bill amended, passed just before Christmas.
It was Christmas Eve you got these new laws passed.
Can you tell us about why you were so determined to get that through so quickly after the attack? >> Yeah, it’s pretty easy.
People wanted action.
They wanted action from their government.
They wanted to see that their government um was strong, decisive, and prepared to do what was required.
Um removing guns from our community was one of those things that people definitely understood was a positive thing.
>> Mhm.
>> Um making sure that uh we look at and change the legislation in relation to hate crimes was critically important.
And um and putting in place, uh which we’ve subsequently done, um with the police, uh putting in place a special rapid response squad.
>> The Bondi Beach terror attack wasn’t the first anti-Semitic attack we’d seen.
Jewish Australians have been living in fear since, you know, 2023.
So, why why then? Why didn’t we do it earlier when they were yelling out for help? Why did it take the attack to change the laws? >> Yeah, that’s a good question.
And um I think if I had my time over again, I would have been having very different conversations with my caucus colleagues and with the cabinet colleagues.
Um but I don’t, unfortunately.
But you’re quite right.
You know, the eastern suburbs, particularly of our state or our city, were experiencing hateful just hateful.
I hate Well, we called it the summer of hate, in fact, which was the summer of 24, and it was absolutely shocking.
And I was certainly not proud of who we were.
You know, I I go to and have been going for I’ve been a member for nearly 12 years.
I go to a lot of citizenship ceremonies.
And at those ceremonies, a line I always use, because I’m so proud of it, is we welcome you to be part of our multicultural tapestry, which is so successful in this country, in this state, and in Lake Macquarie.
And I didn’t feel like that then.
I didn’t feel like that then, and I haven’t felt like that since October 2023.
Um and >> Jewish Australians would say the same.
They kind of felt like they were yelling and no one was listening.
>> Yeah.
Well, we put, you know, different things in place, but you’re right.
They’re right.
>> Protests.
During your tenure, you’ve been accused of being not heavy-handed enough, too heavy-handed.
You’ve had both sides of the coin.
I’m talking about the October 2023 pro-Palestinian protest, and then more recently, the Israeli president visited, and you were accused of being too heavy-handed.
Did the the first kind of reaction inform the second reaction in terms of your approach to those two incidents? >> Absolutely.
Uh and I think for all the right reasons.
I mean, those vile scenes down on the steps of the Opera House, of flames being set off, burning flags, were viewed around the world and we uh were seen and probably rightly so as a a society that was celebrating the deaths and killings of innocent residents in Israel overseas.
I mean, shocking, awful.
Horrible.
And yeah, you bet it informed the every decision made from then on because it’s a government’s responsibility to keep your community safe.
And our Jewish community felt the exact opposite to that.
And whilst I, the government, and the police support protests, we support peaceful protests within the framework of the law.
But then with these recent ones when the Israeli president came, I mean, there’s been 800 complaints about police heavy-handedness.
So, did we go too far in the other direction? Look, it was a very volatile situation.
Obviously, we had the you know, we had one group at town hall who were protesting against the Israeli president who was less than a kilometer away as the crow flies down at the ICC.
Again, I just go back to community safety and keeping the community safe.
But I will add one other thing to this and that is that the protesters on that day led by Josh Leis, the one at the town hall, they had made an agreement with the police that it would not be a they would not march, that it would be stagnant a stagnant protest.
They had made that agreement and then towards the end of their speeches as I understand it, they were all starting to you know, close up and people had some people had already started walking off and going home.
There was a group that insisted on defying those agreements that had been made and insisted on taking the police on.
Now, the police had a job to do there and that was they’d made it very clear that no one was going to march.
They’d been offered different routes, a different place to be, but no, no, no, nothing was good enough and, you know, at the end of the day, uh, the LEC, the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission, as you say, there’s been complaints made to them, 800 of them.
They will review each and every one of those and if there was poor behavior, bad behavior, etc.
, then that will be called out as it should be.
That is why we have the LEC.
They are there, it’s the only one in the country that specifically looks at our law enforcement arm.
We’re the only ones that have got it in the country.
>> Yep.
So, that’s their job.
>> of the police? >> That’s right, 100% and other jurisdictions have other types, but not that just looks at the law enforcement in our state.
So, that’s their job.
Let them do their job.
Um, I will I support, um, our police keeping our community safe on that day.
Tensions were high, we needed to take the heat out of it.
Um, I would do the same again.
>> As that protest made media headlines, we did see actual footage on our TV screens of police being not just heavy-handed, but quite violent with protesters.
What was it like for you to watch that? >> There is no place for violence on our streets, zero.
I have zero tolerance for it and it doesn’t matter who that is.
But, that will be investigated by the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission and if they find any wrongdoing, then those police officers will be dealt with.
Equally though, all of that footage will also be looked at by police and if anybody has broken the law, then they too will be dealt with.
There was any number of cameras and body worn cameras on on that particular night and all of that footage will be used as evidence.
I need to bring up Claire Nowland because it was a big pressure point for you.
For listeners who don’t know that name, she was a 95-year-old aged care home resident, and she was fatally tased by a New South Wales officer in 2023.
That senior constable has since been found guilty of manslaughter.
There was a lot of criticism about your response, the commissioner’s response from all kind of sides.
The the criticism I’m most interested in is the accusation that you were more focused on defending New South Wales Police during the controversy than acknowledging the kind of public concern about the use of force against a frail older lady.
How do you reflect on your handling of that incident? Um well, again, the use of any force uh is an operational matter for the New South Wales Police.
And I know some people will say, but I’m not a police officer.
I think that’s very important that we know that.
I am not, and I have to be guided by them.
I think that it was shocking.
That’s first and foremost, and I have to say I said that it was shocking like, but should it have been used? Shouldn’t it have been used? That is a decision uh that has then been played out, as you say, in the courts.
Um there was a critical investigation also undertaken at the time, and LECC were also there.
They stand side by side when there’s a critical investigation taking place from the police.
And rightly so, they are the people who should be determining whether or not or what type of force um should be used.
Who should have been there? Should they not have been there at all? All of those things um obviously are examined.
Look, I think you know, going back to your point before, I get criticized for, you know, doing too much, not doing enough.
Um I accept that criticism.
Um I on reflection again I just think it was shocking that a woman lost her life.
Whilst she was in her 90s, she was very sprightly and I spoke to her family and I don’t know if I’ve told anyone that I’ve spoken to her family to be honest with you.
And she may have been that age, but she certainly was still very according to them very fit, still very withered.
I mean she was jumping out of a plane not that many years before believe it or not parachuting.
So she was clearly a woman of spirit and had lived life to the fullest and is that the way that you’d want you know your grandma or your mom or your aunt or family member to to to go and be remembered.
Absolutely not.
It was shocking.
>> Why did you decide to speak to her family? >> I felt that on behalf of the government that that’s very important.
I speak to lots of victims families, family members.
>> Were they appreciative of hearing from you given that it was a police officer that killed them? >> Yes.
They were very polite and very a beautiful family.
A very big family cuz there were lots of kids.
But they were beautiful family.
Yeah.
So in the wake of Clare’s death, an organization did reach out across Australia and offer dementia training to police officers.
Do you think that that could be an important area because I know that New South Wales is yet to take up that offer.
Only the Northern Territory has.
>> Oh look it might be something that law enforcement could look at.
I do know they do have a lot of different modules that they deal with down at Goulburn during that training period.
For instance, Autism Australia provides some assistance which is really useful particularly uh, when a child with autism goes missing, there are certain, um, things that you should put in place specifically for people or young people with autism, which was fascinating.
I found it fascinating.
And a whole host of other, um, types of modules addressing specific, um, groups as well.
So, it’s certainly something that we could, um, mention and and look at.
>> This criticism of, you know, I’m I’m saying in quotations, the too heavy-handed and defending police of being heavy-handed, that seems to come up a lot.
You know, the protests, Clennon Hall, and can you see where it’s coming from? Do you Do you see that criticism’s point of view? >> I can see that people are saying that and why they’re saying that.
Um, but again, police are our law enforcement officers, and we don’t want them doing the wrong thing.
That’s for sure.
And they will be called out if they are.
Uh, you know, and we’ve seen that over and over again.
Uh, like just in the short time that I’ve been the minister, there have been a number of police removed from the New South Wales Police Force because of excessive force or bad behavior or both.
Uh, and as they should be, quite frankly.
Uh, that’s just in short 3 years.
So, you know, it it is the case that it’s, um, I don’t I’m not defending or standing up for excessive force.
No way in the world.
Um, we should not have violence on our streets, and violence on our streets should definitely not from police officers.
And as I say, if that is the case, then the Law Enforcement Conduct Commission will investigate that, um, and will provide recommendations.
As they should, that’s what their job is.
The New South Wales Police is the organization that people will pick up the phone to ring triple zero when they need them.
And I have to say that uh, that is most people’s interaction with police.
Now, your listeners might sit here and think that I’m defending them yet again, but that’s just a reality.
They They go to nearly 2 million They get nearly 2 million calls a year.
Now, that’s insane numbers, isn’t it? >> Yeah.
>> So, you know, I I get that and and we hear a lot about the bad behavior and we hear a lot about uh use of force.
And again, call it out if that is the case.
>> Yeah.
>> Of course, you should.
But, in some context, then I would say uh remember also that the 20,000 police officers are all people in the New South Wales police that we have out there.
It’s a large organization.
99% of them are not doing that.
>> Youth crime, another very hot topic at the moment all over the country, really.
I know we’re talking about New South Wales, but our listeners are from everywhere and it is you know, you see it playing out in Melbourne and Victoria and Queensland.
Uh We’re constantly hearing about regional crime waves involving young people.
This is something that you’ve recently tackled with some legislation.
Can you talk us through what those changes are and and what you’re hoping we’ll see from them? >> Yeah, I think um if you don’t mind, I’ll just start at the beginning.
And again, this was uh coming into uh the cabinet room and uh our cabinet is 50% women.
>> Mhm.
>> And this youth crime wave began anyway.
We’re sitting around and, you know, this new set of eyes sitting there going, “Well, hold up.
This is just seasonal police.
Like, we just can’t arrest our way out of this.
This is a problem and these are young people who we need to put on a different path.
” So, speaking to the Attorney General, the uh the Minister for Corrections, Juvenile Justice, etc.
, etc.
There’s about six of us in the portfolios, right? And so, we’re like, “Yeah, we’ve got to do something else than just arrest these kids.
There has to be more to this.
So, that’s why we made the legislative changes.
Um so, police made some changes.
They had operation Saturnia and operation Sweetnam, which is Sweetnam is here in the city in metropolitan areas.
Operation Saturnia is out in our regional areas.
And that was a real focus on hot crime spot areas.
So, that was important.
Um and that took a lot of the ringleaders out of the equation and, you know, touch wood.
We haven’t been It is a lot more under control as we sit here today.
Um but, uh some other areas of concern were the posting and boasting.
So, they uh were stealing cars and going on joyrides, filming it, and then posting it.
Um so, that is now an offense.
Uh uh break and enter into a home.
So, they are so brazen breaking and entering into a home.
Uh filming that in some instances as well, like while people are sleeping with a knife over their head and the like.
Like, horrific.
>> It’s just teenagers.
It’s just wild.
>> Well, young teenagers.
Some of them like 11, 12, 13.
>> to me.
>> I know.
I know.
>> [laughter] >> I’m still playing with Barbies, I think.
>> me too.
I was nowhere near a knife, but anyway.
>> [laughter] >> Um no, me either.
Um also, I would have got into massive trouble.
Like, I I if you weren’t in bed asleep, then you would have got into big trouble at my house.
There’s those changes that we’ve made.
Um oh, and so, two break and enters, um then you can the judge has to consider whether or not to give you bail or not.
So, we’re seeing that change, which has been good.
But, the thing that’s most significant is the funding that we’ve sent through through all of us uh working together, the funding that we’ve injected into those communities for preventative and proactive um results.
And we’re getting some really good results, which is fantastic, we’re told by locals on the ground, so that’s good.
Um, and we’re also in Moree, uh, building the the place-based facility there, where if you have a recidivist offender, they can choose to go there, and they’ll have wrap-around services, etc.
So, um, they’ll be safe, they’ll get, uh, the care they need, and we’ll have health there as well, education.
So, the services will be wrapped around them, and we hope to really steer those young people away from crime to a better life.
>> And it sounds like we’re already seeing some results there.
>> I think so.
I I think it’s, um, I don’t want to get too, um, uh, you know, talk it up too much.
There’s always more work to do.
Like, yeah, there’s crime in in these little rural towns, or big rural towns, really, and and remote and regional areas, um, but we’re seeing some green shoots.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, police is saying that, community is saying that.
Like, you can’t just go into a community and do this, that, and the other.
And I think that’s the thing that this government has done really well.
We’ve worked with the community.
So, local government will be at the table, the local services will be at the table, education, health, you name it, we work collaboratively, and um, I have traveled this state with police doing exactly that, working with the community stakeholders for solutions.
We’re not here to point the finger, we’re not here to do anything but solutions.
And if we can change some of those young people’s lives out of the criminal justice system onto a successful life, then wow, what a wonderful legacy that would be.
What about systemic bias against Indigenous people in our country? Are we seeing any green shoots in the right direction there? Because that is an issue that we’ve had for years, decades, long before you ever took, you know, these portfolios.
But, last year New South Wales recorded near record Indigenous deaths in custody.
What do we do with that information? How do we fix this? >> Well, you’re quite right.
Also, our rates of incarceration >> Mhm.
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