A Millionaire Sheikh Married a Filipina Beauty Queen — He Didn’t Know It Was a Trap – Part 2
He thought he was giving his family a better life.
He didn’t know the building was constructed with substandard materials.
He didn’t know the Alzarani group had substituted cheap cement to save 40% on costs.
And he didn’t know that you, Mansour.
I personally authorized the bribe payments to inspectors who should have condemned the building before anyone moved in.
That was over 20 years ago, Mansour whispered.
I was following my father’s orders.
I didn’t.
You didn’t know? Isabella’s voice was sharp.
Now you have a degree from Stanford.
You were the CFO.
You signed every check.
The payment records are public, processed through a shell company in the Cayman Islands.
Your initials on every single one.
You knew exactly what you were buying.
Silence while 140 people moved into death traps.
Mansour’s face crumpled.
Isabella, I’m sorry.
I’m so sorry.
But this what you’ve done, this isn’t justice.
This is this is exactly justice.
Isabella interrupted.
You want to know what I did? I spent 2 years building a case against you.
Every suspicious transaction the FBI is looking at right now, I created them.
I used your voice, your credentials, your accounts.
I made it look like you were violating federal sanctions law.
And then I reported you to the SEC as an anonymous whistleblower.
Mansour’s eyes went wide.
You framed me.
I did, Isabella said calmly.
And under the DoddFrank Act, whistleblowers who provide original information leading to successful enforcement actions are entitled to between 10 and 30% of the monetary sanctions collected.
The SEC is about to seize approximately $2.
3 billion of your assets, Mansour, which means I may receive a lifealtering percentage of the assets seized as a reward for exposing the violations investigators would later interpret as criminal.
The room spun.
Mansour looked like he was going to be sick.
Ah, everything was a lie, he said, his voice barely audible.
The summit, the questions about my sustainability report, the vulnerability you showed me at dinner.
The love, all of it.
Not all of it, Isabella said.
And for the first time, her voice cracked slightly.
I didn’t expect to feel anything for you.
That part wasn’t planned.
But it doesn’t matter what I felt.
My father told me the morning he died that smart girls don’t just survive in this world, they rebuild it.
So I rebuilt myself into exactly what I needed to be to get close to you.
I became a beauty queen so I could access your world.
I got a degree from LSE so I could speak your language.
I scrubbed 20 years of my life from the internet so you’d never connect me to the Reyes family who died in Manila.
You married me, Mansour said, tears streaming down his face.
Why you let me love you? I married you because wives have legal protection, Isabella replied.
Spousal privilege means I can’t be compelled to testify against you in any criminal proceeding.
Power of attorney means I had access to authorize the transactions that destroyed you and the marriage gave me credibility as a whistleblower.
Who would suspect the devoted wife? The woman I loved never existed.
Mansour whispered.
No, Isabella said, “She didn’t.
” She walked to the door, then stopped and turned back one more time.
140 people died in Manila because your family valued profit over human life.
My entire family was erased because you wanted to save money on concrete.
You’ve spent 20 years building an empire on blood money.
I just balanced the scales.
Agent Moss opened the door.
Times up.
Isabella walked out.
Behind her, Ka Mansur El Zahani sat in his $50 million house, surrounded by federal agents cataloging his ruin, and understood with perfect clarity that the woman he trusted with his heart had spent every moment of their relationship building his cage.
The soulmate he’d thought would save him had been his executioner all along.
April 2025.
The federal medical center in Devons, Massachusetts is where the government sends white collar criminals who can’t handle regular prison.
Mansour al- Zarani was in a private cell technically for his own protection, but really because a billionaire in general population wouldn’t last a week.
He’d lost significant weight.
His lawyers visited twice a week, but they weren’t bringing good news.
The SEC had frozen $2.
3 billion in assets pending the outcome of the criminal investigation, and the civil forfeite proceedings were moving forward regardless of whether he was ever convicted.
Under federal law, the government didn’t have to prove he committed a crime.
They just had to prove the money was connected to illegal activity, and Isabella had made sure they could.
His cousins had seized control of the Alzarani group within days of his arrest.
His board of directors had released a statement expressing shock and pledging full cooperation with investigators.
His name, which had once opened doors across three continents, was now a liability.
Every business partner, every investor, every social connection he’d cultivated over 30 years had vanished the moment the FBI released their statement.
But the worst part wasn’t the money or the humiliation.
It was the nightmares.
Every night while Mansour dreamed about the Crown Manila Plaza, he saw the building collapse in slow motion.
He saw the faces of people he’d never met, people whose names he’d never known, people who’d died because he’d signed checks without asking questions.
And every time he woke up, he thought about Isabella, the woman he’d loved, the woman who’d never existed.
His lawyers had told him there was a chance he’d never see trial.
The evidence was largely circumstantial, and a good defense could argue the transactions were processed without his knowledge.
But it didn’t matter.
Even if he walked free, he’d lost everything that mattered.
His wealth, his reputation, and the only person he’d trusted in a decade.
3,000 mi away, Isabella Reyes sat in a house overlooking the Atlantic Ocean in a town called Kenny Bunkport, Maine.
The house was beautiful.
Three bedrooms, floor to ceiling windows, a private beach.
She’d paid cash, $4.
2 million, a rounding error compared to what was coming.
The SEC had confirmed her whistleblower claim.
The payout would take another year to process, but early estimates suggested her share would be measured in the hundreds of millions.
Enough money to live 10 lifetimes in luxury.
Enough money to never work again.
Enough money to disappear completely.
But disappearing turned out to be harder than she’d expected.
She thought that once it was over, once Mansour was destroyed and the debt was paid, she’d feel relief, maybe even peace.
Instead, she felt nothing.
Just a vast echoing emptiness that no amount of money could fill.
She couldn’t go back to the Philippines.
Her face had been all over the news after the arrest.
But mystery wife cooperates with federal investigation.
The headlines had read.
Her real identity was still protected under whistleblower confidentiality rules, but anyone who looked closely at Isabella Reyes would eventually connect her to the Reyes family who died in 2003.
She couldn’t stay in America either.
Every time she saw a black SUV, she wondered if it was federal agents coming to ask more questions.
The SEC had assured her she was protected.
But protection and paranoia weren’t mutually exclusive.
She’d built her life on deception.
Now she couldn’t trust anyone, including herself.
At night, she’d sit on her deck and watch the ocean.
Sometimes she’d take out her father’s watch and hold it, trying to remember what his voice sounded like.
But 22 years was a long time.
The memories were fading.
All she had left was the anger.
And now that the anger had been satisfied, there was nothing underneath it, just absence.
She’d won.
She’d done exactly what she’d set out to do.
She’d taken everything from the man who’d taken everything from her.
But victory felt a lot like grief.
One morning in late April, she woke up and realized she couldn’t stay in that house anymore.
The silence was too heavy.
The ghosts too loud.
She needed to move.
Maybe Europe, maybe South America, somewhere she could start over with a new name and a new life.
She was packing when her phone rang.
Unknown number.
She almost didn’t answer, but something made her pick up.
Ms.
Reyes.
The voice was British male professional.
Who is this? My name is Edmund Cross.
I’m a partner at Ashford in Sterling in London.
We represent individuals seeking specialist financial consulting services.
Um, your name was referred to us by a mutual contact.
I’d like to discuss a potential opportunity.
Isabella’s hand tightened on the phone.
I’m not taking new clients.
This isn’t about clients, Edmund said.
This is about a man who built his fortune on substandard pharmaceutical manufacturing in Southeast Asia.
His factories have caused documented harm, and he’s currently looking for a financial adviser with your particular skill set.
Someone who understands both international finance and corporate accountability.
Isabella closed her eyes.
She should hang up.
She should say no.
She should take her money and disappear into whatever life she could build from the ruins.
But instead, she heard herself say, “Send me the details.
” 3 weeks later, in a glass office overlooking the tempames.
I, a woman with dark hair and perfect posture, introduced herself to a Silicon Valley mogul as Isabelle Mercier, sustainable investment specialist.
Her credentials were impeccable, her references glowing, her smile warm and genuine.
The man across from her had no idea his future had already been decided.
He just didn’t know it yet.
The debt is paid, but the cycle has only just begun.
Was Isabella’s revenge worth the price of her soul?
He’s an Australian-born man, non-indigenous.
He’s aged between 30 and 34, and he’s armed with a knife.
What I’ve just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales.
We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state’s domestic violence death review team.
It’s based on three decades worth of data.
I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us.
We’re losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia.
As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Catley admits, it’s depressing.
But she’s trying.
For 3 years, she’s been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems.
In 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control.
They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.
They introduced a new app called empower you, so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support.
They’ve done blitz operations, mass arresting offenders.
But is it working? That’s the big question.
So for the women living this reality in fear, with abuse, with violent men, what’s next? What do we actually do next? I’m Gemma Bath, and you’re listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world’s most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
We don’t often have politicians on this podcast.
But time and time again, we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs, and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice, or support from our police services.
Yasmin Catley is only in charge of policing and counter-terrorism in New South Wales.
But, we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power, to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow.
Catley comes from a working-class family and grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales.
Her husband is also in politics, and they have three daughters together.
She has been a member of the Australian Labor Party since she was 19.
She started off as an electorate officer in the federal party and worked in several senior ministers’ offices for more than a decade before entering state parliament.
She was elected member for Swansea in 2015.
And from there, she’s worn a number of hats.
Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital, both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter, and as of 2023, Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism, which, of course, is why we’ve invited her on the podcast.
Here’s our conversation with Yasmin Catley.
Yasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations.
Can you give us a bit of a background on your career because I’m fascinated how someone went from being a librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism.
I know there’s a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.
>> Yeah, well, I still pinch myself, too, quite frankly.
Um look, I did join the Labor Party when I was 19.
I come from a working-class family.
My dad was a seafarer.
So, politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house and uh he was a member of the party, so I joined as well.
Um I remained a member of the party.
I I should tell you I was a member of the Swansea branch.
There were about uh 76 men and me.
>> Really? >> Yes.
Yeah, you can imagine a 19-year-old >> 19-year-old [clears throat] woman.
>> And guess what? I became the secretary of the branch real quick and that’s because uh what do you do? You give the woman all the work.
>> Oh.
>> Typical, right? >> Don’t make my blood boil.
>> [laughter] >> Oh, well.
You’d be boiling every day if you If I could tell you half my stories, Gemma.
Um you know, and then um I did I worked in public libraries uh for most of my career and then at the I did almost 10 years at the Refugee Review Tribunal, so I moved into Commonwealth public service libraries and um I loved it.
I really enjoyed my job and uh it was after my third child uh I was living in Dulwich Hill with my husband and the three girls and uh Anthony Albanese was my local member and he said, “Do you want to come and work in my electorate office?” And I did.
And uh but then we moved back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combet uh in 2014, the Labor Party was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said, “You should do that.
” And he encouraged me to do that.
And can I say it’s the greatest honor of my life representing my community, the people that I live, work, and play with.
>> So, it sounds like you know, being the member for Swansea is is something you’re really passionate about.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What about the police and counter-terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world? And was that something that you were excited about when you got tapped to do it? >> Well, Gemma, I’d spent most of my life trying to avoid police like most [laughter] people, quite frankly.
So, as a consequence of that, I didn’t know a lot about it.
Um but you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learn.
That’s your job to learn the portfolio.
You don’t need to be an expert from day one and no one can say I’m not a hard worker.
So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it.
I’ve traveled this state meeting police right across the state seeing what they do, the type of work they do.
I don’t think that there’s a command that I haven’t been at at least once, many several times.
I’m really invested in it and I’m invested in it because I don’t think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community like I do today.
And that is day-to-day, day in day out.
Police is intersection 24 hours a day into community in New South Wales is probably the only organization that has that closeness and therefore that’s how serious it is and how important it is.
So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.
>> Minister, exactly what is your job? Because it’s a very different role to like the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them.
So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Look, my job as police minister is to ensure that the New South Wales police is resourced to do their job which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
>> Obviously it’s policy direction as well like recruitment, the recruitment policy for instance getting more boots on the ground making sure police is staying within the organization so reducing the attrition rate.
Obviously their pay and conditions of work are very important to me.
If we don’t look after police, they will walk out the door.
So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well-being is center and mind of everything every decision that I make and of course legislation because they enforce the law.
So working hand in glove with the commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them on the ground.
>> So, the commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you’ll help take that into legislation and law.
>> Sure.
Look, the commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.
>> Really? >> Yeah, yeah.
We’re very close and and you have to be to do the job right.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that’s my view and you know, I’ll whoever is in charge of whatever we’re dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Ultimately, that’s the commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.
>> You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticized the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
>> Can you tell me about that? What what did you mean by that? >> Uh it’s about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work their pay and working conditions.
Capping police officers’ wages sent their wages backwards.
And now, uh like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.
>> Really? >> Yep.
So, police were leaving in droves.
>> And I mean, I guess that means we’re losing quality police officers.
>> Well trained, that’s right.
Like police officers at 10, 11, 12 years like in fact, um I love data and I love evidence.
So, when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in 2023-24, um I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving.
So, it was sort of between that 9 and 11 years, that’s when police were leaving.
Of course, they’re the most experienced, they’re the ones you exactly want to keep.
The opposite.
So, we had to look at how we’re going to keep those.
So, we devised um their their pay and conditions, the the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first and or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal, which was I think it was unanimously voted in.
So, they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
But, the other thing was um not only were they not paid properly, they didn’t feel supported as a result of that.
And there was no wrapping, you know, well-being around them.
We now have a well-being unit within the New South Wales Police, and that’s to specifically case manage individual police officers.
So, we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, “Hey, you really should take some leave, you know?” This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police.
But, it was outsourced to some, you know, external uh works compensation scheme.
And police lost sight.
They had like internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer.
That’s not how you look after people.
That’s not how you look after a workforce.
I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their pay and conditions, and police aren’t any different for me, and that’s the one thing they know I’ve got their back on.
>> So, would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And and how do you think you’re going? Is is the police force happier? >> Uh look, well, they’re certainly happier.
They’ve got more pay, 100%.
>> [laughter] >> Um and so they should be.
So, they should be.
Then, as I say, they’re now the best paid police in the country.
Um they they they know that I’ve got their back, and I do.
I genuinely have their back because if we don’t look after our New South Wales Police officers that do a job like no other.
Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it.
And it’s a big job, [clears throat] you know? Like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life.
But, equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you’ve helped someone out, you’ve, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis, or indeed save someone’s life.
So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days, but I think ultimately when I talk to police, they say to me, “It’s the best job ever and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us.
” And I’ll tell you what, um you know, if they do something wrong, if there’s an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that’s going to happen, then we should call that out.
And [clears throat] I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also uh believe in that.
But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they’re good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.
>> Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with? >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Lots of surprises, um good surprises and not so good surprises.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I I think I didn’t realize um at all that police were um so depended upon across community 24 hours a day.
And people think that they uh you know, they’re mental health uh practitioner, a youth counselor, uh a DV, you know, counselor.
Um because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was “Why aren’t the police doing more?” Like that’s how I was being questioned.
Uh “Why aren’t the police fixing that? Why aren’t the police doing this?” >> Mhm.
>> And I just was this set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, “Hold up.
These people are law enforcement officers.
They They can’t be everything to everyone.
That’s not how this works.
Other uh departments need to also take some responsibility here.
So, we need to work collaboratively together to you know, be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly, but the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone.
That’s not how this works.
And already we’re seeing some changes in uh the mental health incidents.
So, we’ve got we’re sign going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that uh we can have the right person right care.
So, that’s fantastic.
Um in terms of domestic violence, of course, we’ve got the WDV case workers now working in police stations in some areas.
So, people like right next door to a police officer, they’re sitting working as a team.
So, that’s fantastic working very closely with the sector.
Um and there’s other examples as well.
So, it’s just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, “Whoa, hold on a minute.
This doesn’t seem right.
” Um and that’s just being practical and being a community member myself.
And um we’re seeing some And and you know, police like the fact that um there’s someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don’t have to be everything to everyone.
Um so, that was a surprise to me.
Um but good surprise, like real good surprise, is uh the the variance within the organization.
Like, it’s a big organization.
And you can have 17 different careers within the one organization.
It’s amazing.
Like, I I strongly recommend people check it out if they’re looking for a career change.
It’s um you can be anything you want in there.
You know, you just got to you know, go through the the the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales police.
And there’s never been a better time to sign up.
Always recruiting them in Australia.
>> [laughter] >> I’m dedicated, Gemma.
>> You’ve been in this role for 3 years now.
How do you think you’re tracking? What’s your report card on yourself? >> Aw, that’s a bit tricky.
[laughter] I I usually rely on others to do that for me.
Look, I feel um there’s always more work to do, 100% and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that’s the sort of police force we want.
We want the police force of the future.
And if we just keep doing what we’re doing, then um we won’t be that workforce of the future.
And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who who are signed up 40 years ago.
We have to remember that.
So, it’s important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there.
How am I reporting? Okay, I’m not trying to avoid the question.
>> We usually are our own >> [laughter] >> our own best critic, so >> Uh yeah, well, that is true.
Um look, I think that I’m doing okay.
Um I’m still there.
I mean, uh you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long.
Um well, I’ve outlasted most of those people who said that.
So, that’s a positive.
>> [laughter] >> So, there you go.
>> After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men’s violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men’s violence against women.
We talk about it way too often.
Um way too many cases, horrific cases.
We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle, and like you mentioned before, it’s a a systemic issue.
It’s not just police, it’s not just courts, it’s kind of a multi-faceted area.
How do you feel about the progress that we’ve seen in that space since you’ve taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV? >> No.
No is the answer to that.
>> is that? >> And I say that um with a very heavy heart.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect, uh than there is today.
And that in itself says what in the bloody hell is going on? >> Yeah.
>> It’s a problem.
Yeah.
Look, um, in saying that though let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is, um, certainly as I say from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well.
So, I’ll take you through that if if that’s okay.
So, they’ve got a couple of operations, which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Amarok.
Um, now that has, um, occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results and I I will read them if you don’t mind.
Um, Operation Amarok I should just explain to you is a targeted operation uh, targeting high-risk domestic violence offenders.
So, New South Wales Police have, uh, the Domestic Violence Command.
It is the own first and only in the country and it is specifically designed to look at those uh, repeat offenders, those recidivist offenders domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this.
They also assist every command right around the state.
So, if there’s a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations.
So, just a couple of weeks ago, uh, they ran for 4 days, 993 arrests, 2,063 charges.
14,318 ADVO compliance checks, 391 breaches identified, 94 firearms and 48 other weapons were seized.
I mean, isn’t that staggering? In 4 days, almost 1,000 arrests.
With It’s a bit depressing, really.
I know it’s good news, but it’s it’s a bit depressing.
I agree.
I agree.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, in one state, might I add, might I remind listeners we’re talking about just New South Wales here.
>> Exactly.
And I I assume other states are doing, you know, something similar or if not, you know, something the same.
But what I might add is, it’s not just unique to New South Wales.
It is across this country.
Um and that that too is very concerning.
Um I honestly believe that um you know, in addition to that, there’s another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of um commands themselves.
So, much more targeting local areas.
Again, we see numbers that just I find staggering.
Uh we also have, because of other legislative changes that we’ve made around bail and the like, we’ve got um more people, more males, on remand than we have ever had.
They’re bursting at the seams and a third of those uh uh high-risk domestic violence perpetrators that are on remand.
>> On remand, yeah.
So, they are locked up.
Um but we are still seeing this awful amount of um you know, breaches uh right around the state when Operation Amarok is run.
Now, is it I think um the which is a good thing.
Um Police respond to a domestic violence incident every 3 minutes.
>> That is alarming.
But it’s also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me, uh women are more likely to report.
They feel that they are being heard, that police are responding, and that is a good thing.
>> So, do you think that could be why we’re seeing statistics rise a bit, because women uh are reporting? >> I think anecdotally we can say that until we can get some data.
Like, we’ve got to collect data on this stuff, right? So, if we look at BOCSAR statistics, and they are the independent they record all of the the Bureau of Crime Statistics, they report that for New South Wales.
Uh in most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories, um except for three, uh crime is going down in New South Wales.
New South Wales is the safest state in this country.
Except for domestic violence.
It’s It’s not going up exponentially like it was 3 years ago when I first came in as minister, but it’s still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that’s going up.
Retail crime, which would police again have put in, you know, working with We’re not Don’t need to talk about retail crime, maybe for another day.
But, um but they’re the >> I care about those first two, though.
>> Yeah, 100% me, too.
>> Domestic violence and sexual assault going up, like that’s >> Yeah.
Yeah.
And that’s the trend across the country, as well.
>> The thing, like when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great.
But, then the next thing that comes into my brain is, but then these people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs, and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them getting picked up for, but women are killed in that period.
When they go back home, or when they’re released back into the community, that’s when women are dying.
So, what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that you’ve kind of helped bail laws.
Are we strengthening stuff there? Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches? How do we improve that period of a woman’s life? >> Well, it’s identifying um all of those markers, which you’ve just quite rightly um pointed out.
So, um it can There are certain markers that police will use to profile a, you know, serious domestic violence perpetrator.
Um choking.
Um if you’ve split up, that’s a a a concern.
Um if the the relationship has ceased, and there are others as well that police use to, as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator.
And they need to make sure, obviously, they’ll have an ADVO out against them.
We need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those, which police do do checks on those.
But it’s hard to regulate really bad human behavior is the truth of it.
But I don’t think we should give up.
That doesn’t mean we’re giving up.
Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here.
And DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very very vulnerable situations.
But I would say this.
And this is really important to all those women out there listening.
If you know something, then say something.
I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think it was in late 2023.
So, I was only new to the job.
She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner.
They had split up, but he come back in to the house.
She had a young son.
And she was allegedly murdered in his hands.
Um at at in her flat.
Now, it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused.
And I just say to anyone listening, if you know that that is happening, then please say something.
And I know that can be uncomfortable.
I was only speaking to um someone I know recently, and she told me personally about a friend of hers who um she believed was being abused behind closed doors, and I said, “You have to say something.
” And she said, “Oh, I don’t know how to bring this up with my friend.
” >> Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police? >> Well, I mean, say something to both, quite frankly.
>> Really? >> a hundred Yeah, I do.
>> Can police help though? Like, if I was to go to police and say, “My friend is being choked and abused,” wouldn’t they say, “Okay, well, get your friend to come and report it.
” Like, how is that How How is me reporting that going to help my friend? >> I think this is taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago, and I think if you are reporting something like that, um then police will certainly check it out.
And it may not Let’s be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with, and it will be in a priority.
>> Yeah.
>> But, I think uh and they will address it when >> I can can get to it, but I think >> if you don’t say something and you know something, um it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person’s life.
And I know there are uncomfortable conversations to have, and I know that it’s difficult, and I know that instinctively we probably think, “Oh, we shouldn’t say anything.
” But, this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors, and it still is.
>> Mhm.
>> That is the reality.
It still is.
And even though, you know, I’ve heard many people say, “Oh, you know, it’s not that crime anymore.
It’s um Karen Webb told me, “It’s a silent crime.
” And it is a silent crime.
It has to stop being a silent crime, because I can tell you right now, if 36 footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.
>> Mhm.
Well, that’s the the kind of what we keep coming back to.
It’s like this is an epidemic.
Like why are we not doing more? But you’re saying we’re we’re kind of we’re trying to do more.
>> Well, police are >> Yeah.
Police are are really they’ve got an empower you app now, so you can actually diarize um everything that is occurring in your life and on that app as well, you can also um have a a button to send a message to a friend, I need your help.
Uh it’s in 40 different languages.
Like we are trying everything we can to assist.
You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence.
We’ve made sure that it’s at that level.
Uh that was devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and um you you know, able to be used.
Um there is now the capacity to be able to um if you dial triple zero, you can have a live link with police.
Um a video link with police, so you can talk to them directly.
So we’re working on how we could adapt that into using that in much more just in a safety environment as well.
Again, I go back to technology and how important technology is.
So police are really doing a lot um and I’m really proud that I’m the minister and that that that that is the case.
Um but statistics are statistics and quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.
>> Do you All these things that you’ve talked about, I’m trying to have a bit of hope here.
Have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like do you think that we could push those statistics down? I know that you’re only in charge of police.
It’s such a it’s one jigsaw piece.
But how do we push these statistics down? Like really? >> Yeah, well, we’re certainly arresting and and putting them behind bars.
That’s a statistic that I can tell you is a a statistic of success in a sense like these high-risk perpetrators are behind bars.
Um again, we all have a role to play here.
>> Mhm.
>> We really do.
I think that people need to need to think about um you know, conversations that they have with their friends and support’s great, friendship’s wonderful, but um I think giving them a nudge to to let someone know before it’s too late is is something that the people should think about.
>> Let’s talk about legislation.
Because in 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control as a standalone offense.
Have we seen improvements from that? In the space? >> Yeah, coercive well, we’ve had a number of arrests.
Um which is a positive thing.
It’s um which means the law is working.
Coercive control is the long tail.
It can take quite a long time to for police to be able to um get the body of evidence together to then make the charge.
But every police officer has been trained in it, so that’s a good thing.
But I mean, it’s an insidious way of controlling people.
>> Yeah, but it feels like it’s hard to criminalize.
Like what Like we’ve got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read that was the year to 2024 July, they had 297 reports of coercive control in that year, nine charges, and one conviction.
So it’s like the law’s great, but we’re not seeing the results at the end.
>> Yeah.
I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be um as intended at its best for it like the laws itself to be um used to their full potential.
And it’s only because not because police aren’t trying, it’s awareness, people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behavior as a criminal behavior.
So, it’s certainly educating people.
It’s also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place.
So, I think um we will review it.
It There’s a review mechanism in the legislation and we will review it and we will continue to review it, but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma.
It’s something that I feel very, very strongly about because um you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behavior is also a precursor to homicide.
So, again, the more people and particularly women know about coercive control and the fact that it is a criminal behavior and is treated as such in New South Wales, then I think the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to that piece of legislation.
>> Am I right in saying that you’re also trying to make covert stalking a criminal offense? >> Oh, yeah, we have.
That’s right.
Yeah, 100%.
So, what we’re seeing is in vehicles, men being able to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to track women as well, obviously on their phones or again in their vehicles.
Yeah, so stalking is a it will absolutely be a a covert offense as well, as it should be.
>> So, that’s something that we’re still waiting to kind of go through everything it needs to go through or it is an offense? >> It It’s It’s in our legislation that just went through the house in New South Wales.
So, it I’m Soon.
Soon.
Very soon.
Be a second or two soon.
It’s hard to believe as a woman that, you know, you would be surveilled like this by the person that you most trust.
But the fact we need legislation for it shows it’s happening so much.
>> Yes.
>> That’s right.
That’s right.
And with, you know, consequences that can be murder.
>> Mhm.
>> Shocking.
>> Sexual assault, let’s talk about that.
We know that it’s an area that’s notoriously hard to get convictions in.
We also know that New South Wales police have a massive backlog of sexual assault investigations.
Were you aware of how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio? >> Uh look, no, I wasn’t, but it’s shocking.
Um I just I find, you know, societies, the whole of society with sexual assault, I just find it mind-blowing.
I can’t believe it.
I can’t believe those statistics are still on the rise.
Um what is going on out there with our young men? I don’t understand.
Well, not just young men, it’s just men generally.
And I think that we need to have a podcast chat about that at some point, too, quite frankly.
Being a girl mom, >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Feel you.
It’s not all men, but it’s enough men.
>> No, no, that’s exactly right.
Um and, you know, I don’t want to criticize all blokes.
I mean, you know, lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke that blokes are women champions, too, which are fantastic.
But um sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just very, very concerning.
Um the backlogs um with police uh you know, it’s not okay.
Uh we will continue to work though to get through those.
The people who are working on those cases take them very, very seriously, thank goodness.
And that’s important.
I think I don’t think it’s always been the case that women have felt that they have been believed.
I think that’s a fact, so I don’t think I’m, you know, saying anything that’s not already out there.
And that in itself is shocking.
Uh so I think it’s very important that they at least feel believed.
And I’m hopeful again that that that is why we are seeing an increase because people are coming forward.
Uh police have in recent times developed SAARO, which is a sexual assault reporting tool.
Uh so you can if you’ve been the victim of a sexual assault, you can now report that crime on SAARO.
And uh you can remain anonymous if you choose.
But then if some yeah, to report the incident.
But then sometime down the track you might want to actually uh prosecute and take that to police.
>> So you can make that choice later.
>> Yeah, which I think is appropriate.
>> Well, a lot of people don’t make the decision until uh you know, years sometimes down the track.
>> Spot on.
That’s right.
So that’s why I mean I think that’s appropriate that you’ve been able to do that.
So that’s a good thing.
Um now and that those statistics are added now to the Bureau of Statistics, the the ones we talked of earlier.
So I think that that is um a positive as well.
Um but you know, again police are at the crisis end and it’s the societal problems that we’ve got to try to look at.
Why is this happening? Why are Why do people feel Why do men feel it’s okay to assault a woman at any time, anywhere.
It’s >> So those wait times are you suggesting that they’re so long because there’s so many that they have to get to? >> Well, it’s >> it a it’s a men issue of so many instances rather than a police not keeping up with the the number of reports? >> I think that it’s probably a bit of both.
>> Yeah.
>> Quite frankly.
Uh we have to we we’re 2 1/2 thousand cops short.
And uh we need to get more boots on the ground.
And I’m super focused on that.
And that’s why the recruiting is is going well at the moment, which is fantastic.
But um >> >> we need more boots on the ground will mean more cases will be solved and and that’s just sheer maths, right? Up next, I ask the New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism about the Bondi terror attack and what her movements were on that day.
Let’s move on to the December 2025 terror attack on Bondi Beach.
Firstly, I want to ask you, where were you when that was happening and and what was your reaction as as it started to kind of unfold? >> I was at home in the Hunter and um the commissioner called me probably a few minutes after he’d been told and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney.
Um horror pure horror like everyone else.
Mhm.
Disbelief.
Um like, is this really happening on our iconic beach? Just before Christmas.
Like, it was shocking.
Absolutely shocking.
And um obviously I was being updated whilst I was driving to Sydney and >> you drive to? Where were you coming to? >> I went straight to police headquarters.
>> Okay.
>> And met the premier there and the police commissioner there and we got a full briefing.
And then we did a media stand-up and then we went straight to Bondi.
Um we went to the police station down there.
Uh which ironically um the Waverley police station is being renovated.
So, all of the police were working at Bondi.
>> Yeah.
>> Most of them anyway because of the renovation going ahead Rose Bay and and Bondi.
So, there were a lot of police there as I say just not necessarily through just through the fact that this renovation is underway.
And as we walked around there, there were police officers from everywhere.
Police officers just put on their uniform and got in the car and drove to Bondi.
They didn’t ring up and ask.
They just got in the car and they drove to Bondi.
There was one police officer there from the Hunter.
>> They’d gotten in the car when you did.
>> Probably.
You know, that’s the sort of quality of people that we have in the New South Wales police.
>> So, in the wake of this tragedy, you managed to get a bill amended, passed just before Christmas.
It was Christmas Eve you got these new laws passed.
Can you tell us about why you were so determined to get that through so quickly after the attack? >> Yeah, it’s pretty easy.
People wanted action.
They wanted action from their government.
They wanted to see that their government um was strong, decisive, and prepared to do what was required.
Um removing guns from our community was one of those things that people definitely understood was a positive thing.
>> Mhm.
>> Um making sure that uh we look at and change the legislation in relation to hate crimes was critically important.
And um and putting in place, uh which we’ve subsequently done, um with the police, uh putting in place a special rapid response squad.
>> The Bondi Beach terror attack wasn’t the first anti-Semitic attack we’d seen.
Jewish Australians have been living in fear since, you know, 2023.
So, why why then? Why didn’t we do it earlier when they were yelling out for help? Why did it take the attack to change the laws? >> Yeah, that’s a good question.
And um I think if I had my time over again, I would have been having very different conversations with my caucus colleagues and with the cabinet colleagues.
Um but I don’t, unfortunately.
But you’re quite right.
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