A Dubai Sheikh’s Filipina Wife Had a Baby That Wasn’t His — She Had 72 Hours to Escape – Part 2
But she couldn’t go through security with them.
From here, they were on their own.
Philippine Airlines flight PR 659 to Manila was scheduled to depart at 6:30 am Check-in had opened an hour ago.
They had 2 hours to clear immigration security and reach gate C23.
Should have been plenty of time.
Matteo checked them in at the kiosk.
Two boarding passes printed out, his and Raina.
Gabriel being an infant under 7 days old didn’t need a separate ticket.
The system processed it without issue.
They moved to the immigration queue.
The lines were short this early.
Maybe 15 people ahead of them.
Mostly Filipino domestic workers heading home after their contracts ended, carrying oversized boxes wrapped in tape.
And Raina’s hands were shaking as they approached the booth.
The immigration officer was young, maybe late 20s, with the board expression of someone working the graveyard shift.
“Passport and boarding pass,” he said in English without looking up.
Rea handed over her emergency travel document, the temporary papers the consulate had issued.
The officer scanned it and his computer screen blinked red.
He looked at the screen, then at Raina, then back at the screen.
Wait here.
Two words.
That’s all it took for Raina’s world to start collapsing.
The officer picked up his phone, spoke quickly in Arabic to someone, then looked at Raina again.
Please step to the side.
Someone will assist you shortly.
“What’s wrong?” Mateo asked, his voice tight.
“Sir, you can proceed through.
The issue is with her document.
I’m not leaving her.
Sir, you cannot remain in this area.
Please proceed through immigration or step back to the check-in area.
Matteo looked at Raina.
She nodded slightly, trying to keep her face calm, even though her heart was hammering.
Go.
I’ll be right behind you.
But she didn’t believe it, and neither did he.
Matteo was directed to another booth where his passport was scanned without issue.
He passed through into the departure area, but he stayed close to the glass partition, watching Raina being led away by a female officer in a Navy uniform.
They took her to a holding room off to the side.
White walls, fluorescent lights too bright, three plastic chairs bolted to the floor.
No windows, just a door with a small glass panel that Raina couldn’t see through from the inside.
Gabriel started crying.
that sharp newborn cry that sounds like pure distress because that’s exactly what it is.
He was 3 days old.
His world had been nothing but chaos and movement.
And now he was in a cold room under harsh lights with his mother’s anxiety flooding through her body into his.
Raina tried to calm him, rocking him gently, but her hands were shaking too badly.
The crying got louder.
The door opened.
A different officer entered.
Older male with graying hair and the kind of face that had seen every lie a traveler could tell.
“M Valdez,” he said her name with the careful pronunciation of someone reading it off a screen.
“Your travel document has been flagged by immigration authorities.
I need to ask you some questions.
” What kind of questions? Why are you leaving the UAE suddenly? My marriage ended.
I’m going home.
Where is your husband? Raina hesitated.
We’re separated.
Does he know you’re leaving? Yes.
The officer looked at Gabriel, still crying in her arms.
This is his child.
Raina’s throat closed.
She couldn’t answer.
If she said yes, it was a lie.
If she said no, it raised questions she couldn’t afford to answer.
The officer waited.
When she didn’t respond, he picked up the phone on the wall and dialed a number.
He spoke in Arabic, too fast for Raina to catch much, but she heard Tariq’s name.
She heard the word Zhaoa, which she knew meant wife.
He was calling someone.
Maybe immigration supervisors, maybe someone else, maybe Tariq’s people.
20 minutes passed.
Gabriel cried for 10 of them, then exhausted himself into silence.
Rea held him against her chest, feeling his tiny heartbeat, feeling his weight getting heavier in her arms as the minutes dragged on.
Outside, Matteo was on the phone with Angelita, his voice rising.
They have her in a room.
They won’t tell me anything.
Where are you? I’m stuck in traffic on Shake Zed Road.
Accident blocking two lanes.
I’m trying.
At 5:47 am, an announcement echoed through the terminal.
Final boarding call for Philippine Airlines flight PR 659 to Manila, departing from gate C23.
All passengers must board immediately.
Matteo heard it.
Raina heard it through the door.
43 minutes until takeoff and she was still locked in a room.
At 5:51 am, the door burst open.
Angelita Santos walked in like she owned the building.
She was out of breath, her professional composure cracked by the sprint from the parking garage, but her voice was steel.
I’m Angelita Santos, consular officer with the Philippine Embassy.
This woman is a Filipino national under my protection.
Under what authority is she being detained? The older officer looked up, clearly not expecting this.
Her travel document has been flagged.
I issued that document.
It’s valid.
Unless you have a criminal warrant or a court order, you cannot detain her.
We’re waiting for confirmation from from whom? Because if this is an immigration matter, I need to speak to your supervisor immediately.
And if this is not an immigration matter, you’re violating diplomatic protocols by holding her without cause.
She pulled out her phone.
I have the UAE Ministry of Foreign Affairs on speed dial.
Would you like me to call them or would you like to release her now? The officer stared at her, picked up his phone, spoke briefly, hung up.
Wait here.
Four more minutes passed.
Then a supervisor arrived, reviewed the documents, made one more call, and finally, finally stamped Raina’s emergency travel certificate.
You’re clear to proceed.
The time was 6:08 am 22 minutes until departure.
Gate C23 was a 12-minute walk from immigration.
Run, Angelita said.
Raina ran full sprint through Dubai International Airport with a three-day old baby bouncing in her arms.
Matteo beside her, the bag slamming against his back.
Past the duty-free shops, past the prayer rooms, past travelers who turned to stare.
Gate C23, the sign above it blinking, the door still open.
The gate agent with his hand on the handle about to close it.
Wait.
Raina’s voice cracked as she screamed it.
The agent looked up, saw a woman running with a newborn, desperation written across her face.
He held the door.
They scanned their boarding passes at 6:13 am, walked down the jet bridge, stepped onto the plane.
The flight attendant closed the door behind them with a heavy metallic thunk.
60 seconds later, the plane pushed back from the gate.
At 6:14 am, PR 659 lifted off from Dubai International Airport, climbing through the dawn sky toward Manila.
Rea sat in seat 32F.
Gabriel asleep in her lap and closed her eyes.
Tears streamed down her face, not from sadness, not from relief, just from the sheer weight of everything that had happened in the past 72 hours.
Matteo reached over and took her hand.
Neither of them said anything.
There was nothing left to say.
9 months later, February 2024, Kzon City, Manila.
The kitchen table in their rented apartment was barely big enough for two people to eat at, let alone serve as a workspace.
But Raina had bills spread across every available inch.
electricity, water, Isabelle’s school tuition, Gabriel’s pediatrician visit, groceries.
She held a calculator in one hand and a pen in the other, adding and subtracting, trying to make the numbers work.
They didn’t work.
They never quite worked.
The front door opened at 7:45 pm Matteo walked in wearing wrinkled scrubs, his hospital ID badge still clipped to his chest.
He worked at Manila General now, earning roughly one-third of what he’d made in Dubai.
His shift had started at 6 o a am 13 hours on his feet.
He looked at Raina’s face, saw the bills, and didn’t ask.
Just kissed the top of her head and went to wash his hands.
Isabelle was doing homework at the small desk in the bedroom she shared with Gabriel.
She was nine now, taller, her hair longer than it had been when Raina last saw her in person 2 years ago.
She’d cried for 3 days straight when Raina and Gabriel finally arrived in Manila.
Not from sadness, from relief that her mother was real and alive and finally home.
“Mama,” Isabelle called from the bedroom.
“Can I ask you something?” Raina looked up from the bills.
Of course, Anak.
Isabelle appeared in the doorway, holding her pencil.
Why did you really leave Dubai? Lola said, “You had a good life there.
A big house.
Why did you come back?” It was the question Rea had been expecting for months.
She’d prepared different answers in her head, simple ones that a 9-year-old could understand without carrying the weight of the whole truth.
But when she looked at Isabelle’s face, she realized her daughter deserved better than a simple answer.
Raina glanced at Gabriel, who was on a blanket on the floor, 10 months old now, crawling around and laughing at nothing in particular.
He had Matteo’s light brown hair, his hazel eyes, and Raina’s smile.
He was healthy, happy, safe.
“Because staying would have killed me,” Raina said quietly.
and I needed to live for you, for him, for myself.
” Isabelle thought about that for a moment, then nodded like it made perfect sense.
“Okay, mama.
” She went back to her homework.
Raina’s phone buzzed on the table.
A message from Dr. Patricia Lim, who she hadn’t heard from in 2 months.
“How are you?” Rea typed back.
“Surviving? That’s enough.
She’d learned through Angelita that Dr. Lim had resigned from Prime Hospital before they could fire her.
She’d moved to San Francisco where she now worked with an immigrant rights organization helping women in situations like Raina’s.
She’d sacrificed a career she’d spent 27 years building.
Rea also knew through the Filipino community network that stretched across continents that Tariq had remarried 4 months after her departure.
a 20-year-old woman from Morocco.
The pattern was continuing.
And according to Salma, the Egyptian housekeeper who’d warned Rea about Hala, Tariq’s daughters from his first marriage, refused to speak to him now.
The whispers in his business community had damaged his reputation in ways a man like him couldn’t control.
But none of that mattered anymore.
At 8:30 pm, after Gabriel had been fed and put to bed, after Isabelle finished her homework, after Matteo had eaten leftover adobo standing at the counter because he was too tired to sit, Raina stepped out onto their small balcony.
It overlooked a narrow street where children were playing basketball under a flickering street light.
The air smelled like grilled fish from a neighbor’s dinner.
Traffic noise echoed from the main road two blocks away.
She picked up Gabriel from his crib and held him, watching Isabelle join the kids below, laughing as she chased the ball.
This wasn’t the life Tar had promised.
No marble floors, no housekeepers, no luxury, but it was hers, and she was alive to live it.
The moment that baby was born, Raina had two choices.
die slowly in silence or survive loudly in truth.
She chose survival and sometimes in a Dubai hospital at midnight surrounded by strangers who become sisters.
That’s the only choice that saves you.
Rea survived because women she’d never met chose to risk everything for her.
Dr. Limb, Grace, Angelita, Father Ramon, strangers who became lifelines when the systems designed to protect her failed.
He’s an Australian-born man, non-indigenous.
He’s aged between 30 and 34, and he’s armed with a knife.
What I’ve just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales.
We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state’s domestic violence death review team.
It’s based on three decades worth of data.
I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us.
We’re losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia.
As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Catley admits, it’s depressing.
But she’s trying.
For 3 years, she’s been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems.
In 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control.
They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.
They introduced a new app called empower you, so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support.
They’ve done blitz operations, mass arresting offenders.
But is it working? That’s the big question.
So for the women living this reality in fear, with abuse, with violent men, what’s next? What do we actually do next? I’m Gemma Bath, and you’re listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world’s most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
We don’t often have politicians on this podcast.
But time and time again, we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs, and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice, or support from our police services.
Yasmin Catley is only in charge of policing and counter-terrorism in New South Wales.
But, we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power, to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow.
Catley comes from a working-class family and grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales.
Her husband is also in politics, and they have three daughters together.
She has been a member of the Australian Labor Party since she was 19.
She started off as an electorate officer in the federal party and worked in several senior ministers’ offices for more than a decade before entering state parliament.
She was elected member for Swansea in 2015.
And from there, she’s worn a number of hats.
Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital, both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter, and as of 2023, Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism, which, of course, is why we’ve invited her on the podcast.
Here’s our conversation with Yasmin Catley.
Yasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations.
Can you give us a bit of a background on your career because I’m fascinated how someone went from being a librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism.
I know there’s a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.
>> Yeah, well, I still pinch myself, too, quite frankly.
Um look, I did join the Labor Party when I was 19.
I come from a working-class family.
My dad was a seafarer.
So, politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house and uh he was a member of the party, so I joined as well.
Um I remained a member of the party.
I I should tell you I was a member of the Swansea branch.
There were about uh 76 men and me.
>> Really? >> Yes.
Yeah, you can imagine a 19-year-old >> 19-year-old [clears throat] woman.
>> And guess what? I became the secretary of the branch real quick and that’s because uh what do you do? You give the woman all the work.
>> Oh.
>> Typical, right? >> Don’t make my blood boil.
>> [laughter] >> Oh, well.
You’d be boiling every day if you If I could tell you half my stories, Gemma.
Um you know, and then um I did I worked in public libraries uh for most of my career and then at the I did almost 10 years at the Refugee Review Tribunal, so I moved into Commonwealth public service libraries and um I loved it.
I really enjoyed my job and uh it was after my third child uh I was living in Dulwich Hill with my husband and the three girls and uh Anthony Albanese was my local member and he said, “Do you want to come and work in my electorate office?” And I did.
And uh but then we moved back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combet uh in 2014, the Labor Party was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said, “You should do that.
” And he encouraged me to do that.
And can I say it’s the greatest honor of my life representing my community, the people that I live, work, and play with.
>> So, it sounds like you know, being the member for Swansea is is something you’re really passionate about.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What about the police and counter-terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world? And was that something that you were excited about when you got tapped to do it? >> Well, Gemma, I’d spent most of my life trying to avoid police like most [laughter] people, quite frankly.
So, as a consequence of that, I didn’t know a lot about it.
Um but you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learn.
That’s your job to learn the portfolio.
You don’t need to be an expert from day one and no one can say I’m not a hard worker.
So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it.
I’ve traveled this state meeting police right across the state seeing what they do, the type of work they do.
I don’t think that there’s a command that I haven’t been at at least once, many several times.
I’m really invested in it and I’m invested in it because I don’t think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community like I do today.
And that is day-to-day, day in day out.
Police is intersection 24 hours a day into community in New South Wales is probably the only organization that has that closeness and therefore that’s how serious it is and how important it is.
So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.
>> Minister, exactly what is your job? Because it’s a very different role to like the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them.
So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Look, my job as police minister is to ensure that the New South Wales police is resourced to do their job which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
>> Obviously it’s policy direction as well like recruitment, the recruitment policy for instance getting more boots on the ground making sure police is staying within the organization so reducing the attrition rate.
Obviously their pay and conditions of work are very important to me.
If we don’t look after police, they will walk out the door.
So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well-being is center and mind of everything every decision that I make and of course legislation because they enforce the law.
So working hand in glove with the commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them on the ground.
>> So, the commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you’ll help take that into legislation and law.
>> Sure.
Look, the commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.
>> Really? >> Yeah, yeah.
We’re very close and and you have to be to do the job right.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that’s my view and you know, I’ll whoever is in charge of whatever we’re dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Ultimately, that’s the commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.
>> You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticized the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
>> Can you tell me about that? What what did you mean by that? >> Uh it’s about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work their pay and working conditions.
Capping police officers’ wages sent their wages backwards.
And now, uh like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.
>> Really? >> Yep.
So, police were leaving in droves.
>> And I mean, I guess that means we’re losing quality police officers.
>> Well trained, that’s right.
Like police officers at 10, 11, 12 years like in fact, um I love data and I love evidence.
So, when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in 2023-24, um I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving.
So, it was sort of between that 9 and 11 years, that’s when police were leaving.
Of course, they’re the most experienced, they’re the ones you exactly want to keep.
The opposite.
So, we had to look at how we’re going to keep those.
So, we devised um their their pay and conditions, the the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first and or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal, which was I think it was unanimously voted in.
So, they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
But, the other thing was um not only were they not paid properly, they didn’t feel supported as a result of that.
And there was no wrapping, you know, well-being around them.
We now have a well-being unit within the New South Wales Police, and that’s to specifically case manage individual police officers.
So, we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, “Hey, you really should take some leave, you know?” This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police.
But, it was outsourced to some, you know, external uh works compensation scheme.
And police lost sight.
They had like internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer.
That’s not how you look after people.
That’s not how you look after a workforce.
I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their pay and conditions, and police aren’t any different for me, and that’s the one thing they know I’ve got their back on.
>> So, would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And and how do you think you’re going? Is is the police force happier? >> Uh look, well, they’re certainly happier.
They’ve got more pay, 100%.
>> [laughter] >> Um and so they should be.
So, they should be.
Then, as I say, they’re now the best paid police in the country.
Um they they they know that I’ve got their back, and I do.
I genuinely have their back because if we don’t look after our New South Wales Police officers that do a job like no other.
Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it.
And it’s a big job, [clears throat] you know? Like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life.
But, equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you’ve helped someone out, you’ve, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis, or indeed save someone’s life.
So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days, but I think ultimately when I talk to police, they say to me, “It’s the best job ever and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us.
” And I’ll tell you what, um you know, if they do something wrong, if there’s an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that’s going to happen, then we should call that out.
And [clears throat] I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also uh believe in that.
But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they’re good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.
>> Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with? >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Lots of surprises, um good surprises and not so good surprises.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I I think I didn’t realize um at all that police were um so depended upon across community 24 hours a day.
And people think that they uh you know, they’re mental health uh practitioner, a youth counselor, uh a DV, you know, counselor.
Um because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was “Why aren’t the police doing more?” Like that’s how I was being questioned.
Uh “Why aren’t the police fixing that? Why aren’t the police doing this?” >> Mhm.
>> And I just was this set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, “Hold up.
These people are law enforcement officers.
They They can’t be everything to everyone.
That’s not how this works.
Other uh departments need to also take some responsibility here.
So, we need to work collaboratively together to you know, be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly, but the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone.
That’s not how this works.
And already we’re seeing some changes in uh the mental health incidents.
So, we’ve got we’re sign going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that uh we can have the right person right care.
So, that’s fantastic.
Um in terms of domestic violence, of course, we’ve got the WDV case workers now working in police stations in some areas.
So, people like right next door to a police officer, they’re sitting working as a team.
So, that’s fantastic working very closely with the sector.
Um and there’s other examples as well.
So, it’s just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, “Whoa, hold on a minute.
This doesn’t seem right.
” Um and that’s just being practical and being a community member myself.
And um we’re seeing some And and you know, police like the fact that um there’s someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don’t have to be everything to everyone.
Um so, that was a surprise to me.
Um but good surprise, like real good surprise, is uh the the variance within the organization.
Like, it’s a big organization.
And you can have 17 different careers within the one organization.
It’s amazing.
Like, I I strongly recommend people check it out if they’re looking for a career change.
It’s um you can be anything you want in there.
You know, you just got to you know, go through the the the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales police.
And there’s never been a better time to sign up.
Always recruiting them in Australia.
>> [laughter] >> I’m dedicated, Gemma.
>> You’ve been in this role for 3 years now.
How do you think you’re tracking? What’s your report card on yourself? >> Aw, that’s a bit tricky.
[laughter] I I usually rely on others to do that for me.
Look, I feel um there’s always more work to do, 100% and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that’s the sort of police force we want.
We want the police force of the future.
And if we just keep doing what we’re doing, then um we won’t be that workforce of the future.
And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who who are signed up 40 years ago.
We have to remember that.
So, it’s important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there.
How am I reporting? Okay, I’m not trying to avoid the question.
>> We usually are our own >> [laughter] >> our own best critic, so >> Uh yeah, well, that is true.
Um look, I think that I’m doing okay.
Um I’m still there.
I mean, uh you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long.
Um well, I’ve outlasted most of those people who said that.
So, that’s a positive.
>> [laughter] >> So, there you go.
>> After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men’s violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men’s violence against women.
We talk about it way too often.
Um way too many cases, horrific cases.
We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle, and like you mentioned before, it’s a a systemic issue.
It’s not just police, it’s not just courts, it’s kind of a multi-faceted area.
How do you feel about the progress that we’ve seen in that space since you’ve taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV? >> No.
No is the answer to that.
>> is that? >> And I say that um with a very heavy heart.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect, uh than there is today.
And that in itself says what in the bloody hell is going on? >> Yeah.
>> It’s a problem.
Yeah.
Look, um, in saying that though let me just tell you a bit about what police are doing, which is, um, certainly as I say from more of that crisis end, but they do a bit of prevention as well.
So, I’ll take you through that if if that’s okay.
So, they’ve got a couple of operations, which are specific to domestic violence, Operation Amarok.
Um, now that has, um, occurred just a few weeks ago and some startling results and I I will read them if you don’t mind.
Um, Operation Amarok I should just explain to you is a targeted operation uh, targeting high-risk domestic violence offenders.
So, New South Wales Police have, uh, the Domestic Violence Command.
It is the own first and only in the country and it is specifically designed to look at those uh, repeat offenders, those recidivist offenders domestic violence and to have them targeted in operations like this.
They also assist every command right around the state.
So, if there’s a domestic violence issue, that all is fed back into the Domestic Violence Command so that they can keep all the data and then use all of that data as intelligence when doing these operations.
So, just a couple of weeks ago, uh, they ran for 4 days, 993 arrests, 2,063 charges.
14,318 ADVO compliance checks, 391 breaches identified, 94 firearms and 48 other weapons were seized.
I mean, isn’t that staggering? In 4 days, almost 1,000 arrests.
With It’s a bit depressing, really.
I know it’s good news, but it’s it’s a bit depressing.
I agree.
I agree.
>> Mhm.
>> Um, in one state, might I add, might I remind listeners we’re talking about just New South Wales here.
>> Exactly.
And I I assume other states are doing, you know, something similar or if not, you know, something the same.
But what I might add is, it’s not just unique to New South Wales.
It is across this country.
Um and that that too is very concerning.
Um I honestly believe that um you know, in addition to that, there’s another operation called Operation Surge, which is actually run out of um commands themselves.
So, much more targeting local areas.
Again, we see numbers that just I find staggering.
Uh we also have, because of other legislative changes that we’ve made around bail and the like, we’ve got um more people, more males, on remand than we have ever had.
They’re bursting at the seams and a third of those uh uh high-risk domestic violence perpetrators that are on remand.
>> On remand, yeah.
So, they are locked up.
Um but we are still seeing this awful amount of um you know, breaches uh right around the state when Operation Amarok is run.
Now, is it I think um the which is a good thing.
Um Police respond to a domestic violence incident every 3 minutes.
>> That is alarming.
But it’s also on the flip side, I think, and both the sector and police tell me, uh women are more likely to report.
They feel that they are being heard, that police are responding, and that is a good thing.
>> So, do you think that could be why we’re seeing statistics rise a bit, because women uh are reporting? >> I think anecdotally we can say that until we can get some data.
Like, we’ve got to collect data on this stuff, right? So, if we look at BOCSAR statistics, and they are the independent they record all of the the Bureau of Crime Statistics, they report that for New South Wales.
Uh in most crime categories, in fact, in all crime categories, um except for three, uh crime is going down in New South Wales.
New South Wales is the safest state in this country.
Except for domestic violence.
It’s It’s not going up exponentially like it was 3 years ago when I first came in as minister, but it’s still sexual assault and retail crime is the other one that’s going up.
Retail crime, which would police again have put in, you know, working with We’re not Don’t need to talk about retail crime, maybe for another day.
But, um but they’re the >> I care about those first two, though.
>> Yeah, 100% me, too.
>> Domestic violence and sexual assault going up, like that’s >> Yeah.
Yeah.
And that’s the trend across the country, as well.
>> The thing, like when you were telling me about those operation results, I was like, great.
But, then the next thing that comes into my brain is, but then these people do get bail, and then they might get AVOs, and then they breach those AVOs like we saw them getting picked up for, but women are killed in that period.
When they go back home, or when they’re released back into the community, that’s when women are dying.
So, what do we do with that? Like you mentioned that you’ve kind of helped bail laws.
Are we strengthening stuff there? Are we trying to crack down on these AVO breaches? How do we improve that period of a woman’s life? >> Well, it’s identifying um all of those markers, which you’ve just quite rightly um pointed out.
So, um it can There are certain markers that police will use to profile a, you know, serious domestic violence perpetrator.
Um choking.
Um if you’ve split up, that’s a a a concern.
Um if the the relationship has ceased, and there are others as well that police use to, as I say, profile a serious domestic violence perpetrator.
And they need to make sure, obviously, they’ll have an ADVO out against them.
We need to try to make sure that they are adhering to those, which police do do checks on those.
But it’s hard to regulate really bad human behavior is the truth of it.
But I don’t think we should give up.
That doesn’t mean we’re giving up.
Of course, there are other services in the domestic violence space that also come into play here.
And DCJ have a number of different types of preventative and and crisis and safety mechanisms that they put in place for women who are in these very very vulnerable situations.
But I would say this.
And this is really important to all those women out there listening.
If you know something, then say something.
I want to use an example of a lovely young woman who I think it was in late 2023.
So, I was only new to the job.
She lived in Liverpool and she was murdered at the hands of her partner.
They had split up, but he come back in to the house.
She had a young son.
And she was allegedly murdered in his hands.
Um at at in her flat.
Now, it turned out that there were at least three or four of her friends that knew that she had been choked before, that she had experienced violence, that she had been abused.
And I just say to anyone listening, if you know that that is happening, then please say something.
And I know that can be uncomfortable.
I was only speaking to um someone I know recently, and she told me personally about a friend of hers who um she believed was being abused behind closed doors, and I said, “You have to say something.
” And she said, “Oh, I don’t know how to bring this up with my friend.
” >> Do you mean say something to the friend or say something to police? >> Well, I mean, say something to both, quite frankly.
>> Really? >> a hundred Yeah, I do.
>> Can police help though? Like, if I was to go to police and say, “My friend is being choked and abused,” wouldn’t they say, “Okay, well, get your friend to come and report it.
” Like, how is that How How is me reporting that going to help my friend? >> I think this is taken a lot more seriously than what it was years ago, and I think if you are reporting something like that, um then police will certainly check it out.
And it may not Let’s be honest, there are many priorities that they will be dealing with, and it will be in a priority.
>> Yeah.
>> But, I think uh and they will address it when >> I can can get to it, but I think >> if you don’t say something and you know something, um it could be, you know, that conversation that saves that person’s life.
And I know there are uncomfortable conversations to have, and I know that it’s difficult, and I know that instinctively we probably think, “Oh, we shouldn’t say anything.
” But, this can no longer be a silent crime that only happens behind closed doors, and it still is.
>> Mhm.
>> That is the reality.
It still is.
And even though, you know, I’ve heard many people say, “Oh, you know, it’s not that crime anymore.
It’s um Karen Webb told me, “It’s a silent crime.
” And it is a silent crime.
It has to stop being a silent crime, because I can tell you right now, if 36 footballers or soccer players or hockey players died on the field over a year, there would be a major inquiry into it.
>> Mhm.
Well, that’s the the kind of what we keep coming back to.
It’s like this is an epidemic.
Like why are we not doing more? But you’re saying we’re we’re kind of we’re trying to do more.
>> Well, police are >> Yeah.
Police are are really they’ve got an empower you app now, so you can actually diarize um everything that is occurring in your life and on that app as well, you can also um have a a button to send a message to a friend, I need your help.
Uh it’s in 40 different languages.
Like we are trying everything we can to assist.
You can use the information that you put on that app as evidence.
We’ve made sure that it’s at that level.
Uh that was devised with the sector, so everybody had input into it to make sure that it was acceptable and um you you know, able to be used.
Um there is now the capacity to be able to um if you dial triple zero, you can have a live link with police.
Um a video link with police, so you can talk to them directly.
So we’re working on how we could adapt that into using that in much more just in a safety environment as well.
Again, I go back to technology and how important technology is.
So police are really doing a lot um and I’m really proud that I’m the minister and that that that that is the case.
Um but statistics are statistics and quite rightly, as we started this conversation, those statistics are going in the wrong direction.
>> Do you All these things that you’ve talked about, I’m trying to have a bit of hope here.
Have we not had enough time to embed those to see the changes? Like do you think that we could push those statistics down? I know that you’re only in charge of police.
It’s such a it’s one jigsaw piece.
But how do we push these statistics down? Like really? >> Yeah, well, we’re certainly arresting and and putting them behind bars.
That’s a statistic that I can tell you is a a statistic of success in a sense like these high-risk perpetrators are behind bars.
Um again, we all have a role to play here.
>> Mhm.
>> We really do.
I think that people need to need to think about um you know, conversations that they have with their friends and support’s great, friendship’s wonderful, but um I think giving them a nudge to to let someone know before it’s too late is is something that the people should think about.
>> Let’s talk about legislation.
Because in 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control as a standalone offense.
Have we seen improvements from that? In the space? >> Yeah, coercive well, we’ve had a number of arrests.
Um which is a positive thing.
It’s um which means the law is working.
Coercive control is the long tail.
It can take quite a long time to for police to be able to um get the body of evidence together to then make the charge.
But every police officer has been trained in it, so that’s a good thing.
But I mean, it’s an insidious way of controlling people.
>> Yeah, but it feels like it’s hard to criminalize.
Like what Like we’ve got this law, great, but how do we actually put it into practice? Because with the ABC report that I read that was the year to 2024 July, they had 297 reports of coercive control in that year, nine charges, and one conviction.
So it’s like the law’s great, but we’re not seeing the results at the end.
>> Yeah.
I think it will take a little bit of time for coercive control to be um as intended at its best for it like the laws itself to be um used to their full potential.
And it’s only because not because police aren’t trying, it’s awareness, people knowing that they have that as a law and that they can report that type of coercive behavior as a criminal behavior.
So, it’s certainly educating people.
It’s also, as I say, it takes a long time to build that body of evidence and for the prosecutions to then take place.
So, I think um we will review it.
It There’s a review mechanism in the legislation and we will review it and we will continue to review it, but that’s not a good enough reason to get rid of it, Gemma.
It’s something that I feel very, very strongly about because um you know, it is certainly a precursor that coercive behavior is also a precursor to homicide.
So, again, the more people and particularly women know about coercive control and the fact that it is a criminal behavior and is treated as such in New South Wales, then I think the more that we will see prosecutions in relation to that piece of legislation.
>> Am I right in saying that you’re also trying to make covert stalking a criminal offense? >> Oh, yeah, we have.
That’s right.
Yeah, 100%.
So, what we’re seeing is in vehicles, men being able to track women in their vehicles, using surveillance equipment to track women as well, obviously on their phones or again in their vehicles.
Yeah, so stalking is a it will absolutely be a a covert offense as well, as it should be.
>> So, that’s something that we’re still waiting to kind of go through everything it needs to go through or it is an offense? >> It It’s It’s in our legislation that just went through the house in New South Wales.
So, it I’m Soon.
Soon.
Very soon.
Be a second or two soon.
It’s hard to believe as a woman that, you know, you would be surveilled like this by the person that you most trust.
But the fact we need legislation for it shows it’s happening so much.
>> Yes.
>> That’s right.
That’s right.
And with, you know, consequences that can be murder.
>> Mhm.
>> Shocking.
>> Sexual assault, let’s talk about that.
We know that it’s an area that’s notoriously hard to get convictions in.
We also know that New South Wales police have a massive backlog of sexual assault investigations.
Were you aware of how dire the situation was when you took on the portfolio? >> Uh look, no, I wasn’t, but it’s shocking.
Um I just I find, you know, societies, the whole of society with sexual assault, I just find it mind-blowing.
I can’t believe it.
I can’t believe those statistics are still on the rise.
Um what is going on out there with our young men? I don’t understand.
Well, not just young men, it’s just men generally.
And I think that we need to have a podcast chat about that at some point, too, quite frankly.
Being a girl mom, >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Feel you.
It’s not all men, but it’s enough men.
>> No, no, that’s exactly right.
Um and, you know, I don’t want to criticize all blokes.
I mean, you know, lots of good blokes and lots of good bloke that blokes are women champions, too, which are fantastic.
But um sexual assault and the rise of sexual assault is just very, very concerning.
Um the backlogs um with police uh you know, it’s not okay.
Uh we will continue to work though to get through those.
The people who are working on those cases take them very, very seriously, thank goodness.
And that’s important.
I think I don’t think it’s always been the case that women have felt that they have been believed.
I think that’s a fact, so I don’t think I’m, you know, saying anything that’s not already out there.
And that in itself is shocking.
Uh so I think it’s very important that they at least feel believed.
And I’m hopeful again that that that is why we are seeing an increase because people are coming forward.
Uh police have in recent times developed SAARO, which is a sexual assault reporting tool.
Uh so you can if you’ve been the victim of a sexual assault, you can now report that crime on SAARO.
And uh you can remain anonymous if you choose.
But then if some yeah, to report the incident.
But then sometime down the track you might want to actually uh prosecute and take that to police.
>> So you can make that choice later.
>> Yeah, which I think is appropriate.
>> Well, a lot of people don’t make the decision until uh you know, years sometimes down the track.
>> Spot on.
That’s right.
So that’s why I mean I think that’s appropriate that you’ve been able to do that.
So that’s a good thing.
Um now and that those statistics are added now to the Bureau of Statistics, the the ones we talked of earlier.
So I think that that is um a positive as well.
Um but you know, again police are at the crisis end and it’s the societal problems that we’ve got to try to look at.
Why is this happening? Why are Why do people feel Why do men feel it’s okay to assault a woman at any time, anywhere.
It’s >> So those wait times are you suggesting that they’re so long because there’s so many that they have to get to? >> Well, it’s >> it a it’s a men issue of so many instances rather than a police not keeping up with the the number of reports? >> I think that it’s probably a bit of both.
>> Yeah.
>> Quite frankly.
Uh we have to we we’re 2 1/2 thousand cops short.
And uh we need to get more boots on the ground.
And I’m super focused on that.
And that’s why the recruiting is is going well at the moment, which is fantastic.
But um >> >> we need more boots on the ground will mean more cases will be solved and and that’s just sheer maths, right? Up next, I ask the New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism about the Bondi terror attack and what her movements were on that day.
Let’s move on to the December 2025 terror attack on Bondi Beach.
Firstly, I want to ask you, where were you when that was happening and and what was your reaction as as it started to kind of unfold? >> I was at home in the Hunter and um the commissioner called me probably a few minutes after he’d been told and I got in the car immediately and drove to Sydney.
Um horror pure horror like everyone else.
Mhm.
Disbelief.
Um like, is this really happening on our iconic beach? Just before Christmas.
Like, it was shocking.
Absolutely shocking.
And um obviously I was being updated whilst I was driving to Sydney and >> you drive to? Where were you coming to? >> I went straight to police headquarters.
>> Okay.
>> And met the premier there and the police commissioner there and we got a full briefing.
And then we did a media stand-up and then we went straight to Bondi.
Um we went to the police station down there.
Uh which ironically um the Waverley police station is being renovated.
So, all of the police were working at Bondi.
>> Yeah.
>> Most of them anyway because of the renovation going ahead Rose Bay and and Bondi.
So, there were a lot of police there as I say just not necessarily through just through the fact that this renovation is underway.
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