American Teacher Flew to Nigeria for Her “Soulmate” – A KIDNAPPING GANG Was Waiting at the Airport – Part 3
She gave detailed statements to both Nigerian police and FBI investigators about her kidnapping, describing every member of the gang, every location she had seen, every detail she could remember.
She identified all five gang members from photographs.
Her testimony would be crucial in prosecuting them.
The FBI worked with the US embassy to expedite her departure from Nigeria.
On March 28th, 13 days after she had arrived, expecting to meet the love of her life, Rebecca Thompson boarded a flight from Lagos to Chicago, she was accompanied by Agent Marcus Chen and a State Department official who would ensure her safe passage through customs and immigration.
The flight back was nothing like the excited journey that had brought her to Nigeria.
Rebecca sat in her window seat and stared out at the clouds below, trying to process everything that had happened.
She had been manipulated, betrayed, kidnapped, held for ransom, and traumatized in ways she was only beginning to understand.
The man she had loved didn’t exist.
The relationship that had meant everything to her had been fiction.
She had nearly died thousands of miles from home because she had been desperate enough for connection that she had ignored every warning sign.
When the plane landed at O’Hare on March 29th, Rebecca’s parents and brother were waiting at the international arrivals area.
The moment Rebecca walked through the doors and saw them, she ran into their arms and they held each other crying for what felt like forever.
She was home.
She was safe.
But nothing would ever be quite the same again.
The legal proceedings against the five members of the kidnapping network moved forward with surprising speed for the Nigerian justice system, largely because of the international attention the case had received and the pressure from American authorities to see the criminals prosecuted fully.
The arraignment hearings took place in early April 2019, just 2 weeks after Rebecca’s rescue.
All five defendants, Emmanuel Okafur, Ibrahim Ysuf, Victor Admi, Tund Bakar, and Chioman Nosu appeared in the Lagos State High Court to hear the charges against them and enter their pleas.
The charges were extensive and serious.
Each defendant faced counts of kidnapping, conspiracy to commit kidnapping, extortion, fraud, and operating a criminal enterprise.
Emanuel faced additional charges of wire fraud and computer related crimes for his role in creating the false online identity and luring Rebecca to Nigeria.
The potential sentences ranged from 20 years to life imprisonment depending on the specific charges and the defendant.
When asked to enter p, all five defendants pleaded not guilty, though the evidence against them was overwhelming.
The prosecution had Emanuel’s laptop and phones containing detailed records of his communications with Rebecca and his coordination with the other gang members.
They had the warehouse where Rebecca had been held with her fingerprints and DNA throughout the prisoner room.
They had surveillance footage from the airport showing Victor and Kioma collecting Rebecca.
They had Rebecca’s testimony identifying all five defendants and describing their roles in her kidnapping.
They had the videos and messages the gang had sent to her family demanding ransom.
The evidence was so complete that legal observers predicted the trial would be relatively straightforward.
But there were complications.
The Nigerian legal system, like many systems in developing countries, suffered from chronic delays, overcrowded courts, and limited resources.
Defense attorneys, particularly for defendants with money like Ibraim, who had profited significantly from years of kidnapping, could exploit procedural rules to drag out proceedings.
There was also the everpresent problem of corruption.
While this case had too much international attention for blatant interference, there were concerns that subtle forms of influence might affect the process.
Recognizing these challenges, the prosecution moved aggressively to keep the case on track.
Special prosecutor Adawal Bakar, appointed specifically for this case due to its international implications, worked closely with FBI advisers and American legal observers to build an airtight case.
Every piece of evidence was meticulously documented and authenticated.
Witnesses were prepared thoroughly.
Procedural requirements were followed exactly to prevent any basis for appeal or dismissal.
The trial formally began in October 2019, 6 months after Rebecca’s kidnapping.
The prosecution’s strategy was to present the case methodically, establishing each defendant’s role in the conspiracy and demonstrating the extensive planning and execution of the crime.
They called Nigerian police officers who had conducted the raid and arrested the defendants.
They presented forensic evidence from Emanuel’s devices showing the entire digital trail of the romance scam.
They introduced Rebecca’s testimony through video deposition, sparing her the trauma of returning to Nigeria to testify in person, but allowing the court to hear her account directly.
The video deposition was emotionally powerful.
Rebecca, sitting in a conference room at the FBI’s Indianapolis office with her attorney present, described in detail her four months of online communication with the person she believed was David Thompson.
She explained how Emanuel had manipulated her emotionally, identifying her vulnerabilities and exploiting them.
She described the excitement and hope she felt flying to Lagos, believing she was meeting her soulmate.
Then she recounted the horror of realizing she had been deceived when Victor and Kioma picked her up at the airport.
The terrifying drive to the warehouse, her 11 days of captivity, the fear and despair she experienced.
By the time Rebecca finished describing her ordeal, several people in the courtroom were visibly moved.
Even the defense attorneys seemed affected, though they had a job to do and couldn’t let emotion cloud their representation of the defendants.
The video testimony lasted nearly 4 hours and provided the prosecution with exactly what they needed, a compelling victim narrative that put a human face on the crimes.
The prosecution also called other witnesses who provided context about the broader criminal enterprise.
They brought in investigators who had discovered evidence of the gang’s previous kidnappings, presenting documentation of at least six other victims who had been held for ransom between 2016 and 2019.
While these previous victims had all been released after payment, and most chose not to participate in the Nigerian legal proceedings, their cases demonstrated a pattern of behavior that established this was not an isolated incident, but a systematic operation.
Financial experts testified about the cryptocurrency transactions used to collect ransoms, tracing Bitcoin payments through various exchanges and wallets.
While the money itself had been successfully laundered and couldn’t be recovered, the transaction records proved the financial infrastructure of the criminal enterprise.
Bank records showed how the gang had converted cryptocurrency to cash with amounts totaling over $600,000 across the documented cases.
The defense strategy varied by defendant, but generally followed predictable patterns of trying to minimize individual culpability and shift blame to others.
Emanuel’s attorneys argued that he was just running romance scams and had no knowledge that the women he was deceiving would be kidnapped.
This argument fell apart quickly when the prosecution presented the WhatsApp messages between Emanuel and Ibrahim, explicitly discussing Rebecca’s collection from the airport and the ransom demands.
The messages made it clear Emanuel was a knowing participant in the kidnapping conspiracy, not just an independent scammer.
Ibrahim’s defense was more brazen.
His attorneys argued that while Ibrahim had been present at the warehouse when the raid occurred, there was no proof he was in charge of the operation or that he had personally kidnapped anyone.
This argument also failed when multiple witnesses testified about Ibrahim’s leadership role and when his own phone records showed him coordinating activities and making decisions about the ransom negotiations.
Victor and Tund’s attorneys tried to portray their clients as low-level participants who were just following orders and didn’t understand the full scope of the criminal enterprise.
This might have generated some sympathy, except that their active participation in collecting Rebecca from the airport and holding her prisoner demonstrated clear knowledge and willing involvement in kidnapping.
The most interesting defense came from Kioma’s attorney.
Recognizing the strength of the evidence against his client, the attorney negotiated a plea deal with prosecutors.
Kyoma agreed to provide detailed testimony about the gang’s operations in exchange for a reduced sentence.
Her cooperation was valuable because she could describe the internal workings of the organization, including how victims were selected, how the airport collections were planned, how ransom negotiations were conducted, and how money was laundered.
Ki’s testimony was devastating for the other defendants.
Speaking calmly and without apparent emotion, she explained that the gang had developed a systematic approach to kidnapping refined over years of practice.
She described how Emanuel would spend months grooming potential victims online, building trust and affection while gathering information about their financial situations and social isolation.
She explained the airport collection procedure, how Victor would approach victims with a believable story, while she provided reassurance through her female presence.
She detailed the warehouse operations, the conditions in which captives were held, the methods used to pressure families into paying ransoms.
When asked why she had participated in kidnapping, Ki was matterof fact.
“I needed money,” she said.
I come from very poor family in Delta State.
No education, no opportunities.
Ibrahim offered me work that paid more in one month than I could earn in a year doing legitimate work.
I knew it was wrong, but I did it anyway because I needed to survive.
Her honesty was striking, but it also made clear that this was premeditated criminal activity, not some desperate act of survival.
The prosecution used her testimony to demonstrate that the entire gang had operated with full knowledge of what they were doing and no concern for the trauma they were inflicting on their victims.
The trial lasted 6 weeks, much faster than most complex criminal cases in Nigeria.
The evidence was so overwhelming and well presented that the defense had little room to maneuver.
In early December 2019, after just two days of deliberation, the jury returned guilty verdicts on all counts for all five defendants.
The sentencing hearing took place a week later.
Nigerian law allowed for substantial penalties for kidnapping, particularly in cases involving foreign nationals.
Prosecutor Bakare argued for maximum sentences, pointing out that the defendants had operated a sophisticated criminal enterprise that had traumatized multiple victims and damaged Nigeria’s international reputation.
The judge, Justice Olui Admi, delivered sentences that reflected the severity of the crimes.
Emmanuel Okafur received 25 years in prison without possibility of parole.
The judge noted that Emanuel’s role in creating the elaborate deception that lured Rebecca to Nigeria made him a critical component of the conspiracy.
Ibrahim Ysef, as the leader of the operation, received 30 years in prison without parole.
The judge’s sentencing statement emphasized that Ibrahim had orchestrated a criminal enterprise that systematically targeted vulnerable people for financial exploitation.
Victor Ady received 22 years without parole for his role in collecting Rebecca from the airport and imprisoning her.
Tund Bakar received 20 years for his participation as driver and logistics coordinator.
Kioma Nuosu because of her cooperation with prosecutors received a reduced sentence of 12 years though still without possibility of parole.
The judge acknowledged her assistance to the prosecution, but noted that she had still willingly participated in serious crimes that caused tremendous harm.
In addition to the prison sentences, the judge ordered asset forfeite of all property and funds that could be traced to the criminal enterprise.
Bank accounts were seized, vehicles were confiscated, and a monetary restitution order of $75,000 was issued in favor of Rebecca Thompson.
Though legal experts acknowledged that actually collecting this restitution would be extremely difficult, given that most of the gangs profits had been successfully laundered and hidden.
All five defendants filed appeals as was their right under Nigerian law, but the appeals were denied in 2020.
The convictions and sentences stood.
For the first time in years, a major kidnapping network operating in Lagos had been completely dismantled, and its members would spend decades in prison.
The case sent a message, though whether it would actually deter future criminals remained uncertain.
For Rebecca Thompson, watching the sentencing via video link from Indiana, there was a sense of relief, but not real satisfaction.
These people would be in prison, which was good.
They wouldn’t be able to hurt anyone else.
But justice in a courtroom couldn’t undo what had been done to her.
It couldn’t erase the trauma.
couldn’t restore her ability to trust, couldn’t give her back the innocence and hope she had carried with her onto that flight to Lagos.
The people who had destroyed her sense of safety in the world would pay a price, but she would be paying a price, too, for the rest of her life.
The long-term consequences of Rebecca Thompson’s 11-day nightmare in Lagos extended far beyond the courtroom verdicts.
In the two years following her rescue, Rebecca struggled with severe psychological trauma that affected every aspect of her life.
She had developed acute stress disorder in the immediate aftermath of the kidnapping, which evolved into full post-traumatic stress disorder as months passed.
The symptoms were debilitating.
She experienced frequent panic attacks triggered by seemingly random things.
seeing someone who resembled one of her kidnappers.
Hearing accented English that sounded like Victor’s voice.
Driving past industrial buildings that reminded her of the warehouse.
Her sleep was destroyed by recurring nightmares.
She would dream she was back in that concrete room, hearing the lock click, feeling the walls closing in.
She would dream that the rescue had never happened, that she was still waiting in the darkness for someone to save her.
She would wake up screaming, her heart pounding, unable to distinguish dream from reality for several terrifying moments.
The nightmares became so frequent and intense that she was afraid to sleep, leading to severe insomnia that left her exhausted and unable to function normally.
She developed claustrophobia so severe that she couldn’t enter elevators or small rooms without experiencing overwhelming panic.
movie theaters, crowded stores, even her own car with the doors locked could trigger crushing anxiety.
The independence she had taken for granted before the kidnapping evaporated.
She was afraid to go anywhere alone, constantly looking over her shoulder, jumping at unexpected noises, unable to relax even in familiar environments.
Her ability to trust people had been fundamentally broken.
The man she had loved, who had made her feel special and valued, had never existed.
The friendly young couple who picked her up at the airport had been part of a criminal conspiracy.
How could she ever trust her judgment about people again? How could she believe anything anyone told her? This inability to trust extended even to people she had known for years.
She found herself questioning the motives of friends and colleagues, wondering if their kindness was genuine or if they were manipulating her for some purpose she couldn’t see.
Rebecca initially tried to return to teaching at Westfield Intermediate School in September 2019, 5 months after her ordeal.
The school administration and her colleagues were supportive, welcoming her back and trying to create a comfortable environment.
But being in the classroom proved overwhelming.
She couldn’t focus on lesson plans.
She couldn’t be the warm, engaged teacher her students needed.
She would find herself staring out the window, dissociating from her surroundings, lost in memories of the warehouse.
After just 3 weeks, she had to take a leave of absence.
The financial impact of her kidnapping was also significant, though not in the way it might have been if her family had paid the ransom.
Rebecca had medical bills from her initial treatment in Lagos and ongoing therapy costs in Indiana.
She had lost nearly 6 months of salary between the time she was kidnapped and when she tried to return to work.
The legal fees associated with her testimony in the Nigerian trial and related matters added up.
The GoFundMe campaign that had been started to potentially pay her ransom had raised about $40,000, and this money was redirected to help cover her recovery expenses, but it wasn’t nearly enough.
More devastating than the financial costs was the loss of her career satisfaction.
Rebecca had defined herself as a teacher for 12 years.
It was her identity, her purpose, the thing that gave her life meaning.
Being unable to perform that role left her feeling lost and worthless.
She spent days lying on the couch in her parents’ house where she had moved after giving up her apartment.
Unable to muster the energy or motivation to do anything productive.
Depression settled over her like a heavy blanket she couldn’t throw off.
Her family tried desperately to help.
Patricia reduced her hours at the hospital to spend more time with Rebecca.
Michael did endless research on trauma recovery and PTSD treatment options.
Daniel visited multiple times a week, bringing groceries, taking Rebecca to therapy appointments, just sitting with her when she didn’t want to be alone.
Amanda continued to check in daily.
Though Rebecca often didn’t answer calls or texts for days at a time.
Therapy became the center of Rebecca’s life.
She worked with Dr. Sarah Patel, a psychologist who specialized in trauma recovery and PTSD.
The therapy was grueling and painful.
Rebecca had to confront what had happened to her over and over, processing the emotions, examining the thought patterns that had made her vulnerable, learning strategies to manage her symptoms.
Some days she made progress.
Other days she felt like she was sliding backward into darkness.
Dr. Patel introduced Rebecca to other survivors of violent crimes and kidnapping through a support group.
Meeting other people who had experienced similar trauma was both helpful and difficult.
It was reassuring to know she wasn’t alone in her struggles, that other people understood the specific ways trauma affected daily life.
But it was also painful to hear their stories.
to be confronted with the reality that terrible things happen to good people all the time, that the world was not the safe place she had believed it to be.
One conversation in the support group stuck with Rebecca.
A woman named Jennifer, who had been kidnapped in Mexico 5 years earlier, told the group something that resonated.
You can’t go back to who you were before.
She said that person doesn’t exist anymore.
The trauma changed you fundamentally.
The work is not about getting back to your old self.
It’s about building a new self that can live with what happened.
This realization was both devastating and liberating for Rebecca.
She would never again be the naive, optimistic woman who boarded a flight to Lagos believing in fairy tale romance.
That Rebecca had died in the warehouse.
But maybe she could become someone new, someone stronger and wiser, someone who had survived the worst.
and could help others avoid similar fates.
Slowly, painfully, Rebecca began to rebuild.
In early 2021, nearly 2 years after her kidnapping, she felt ready to try working again.
She wasn’t ready to return to classroom teaching, but she was ready to do something.
She approached Westfield Intermediate School with a proposal to develop a digital literacy program for students focusing on online safety, recognizing manipulation tactics, and protecting personal information.
The administration enthusiastically supported the idea.
Rebecca developed a curriculum teaching students about online predators, romance scams, catfishing, and other digital dangers.
She created age appropriate presentations explaining how criminals use psychological manipulation to build trust and exploit vulnerabilities.
She taught students to verify identities, recognize red flags, and protect their personal information.
The work was meaningful because it turned her trauma into something that could protect others.
She also began speaking publicly about her experience.
It started small with a talk at a local church to their women’s group about the dangers of online romance scams.
But word spread about the kidnapped teacher from Westfield who had survived and was willing to share her story.
She was invited to speak at other churches, community centers, schools.
The FBI asked her to participate in public awareness campaigns about international romance scams.
Media outlets interviewed her for stories about online safety.
The public speaking was terrifying at first, standing in front of audiences, making herself vulnerable by sharing the most painful experience of her life, reliving the trauma every time she told the story.
But it was also therapeutic in a way therapy sessions alone couldn’t be.
Every time someone approached her after a presentation to say that her story had made them more cautious or had helped them recognize a scam they were falling for or had given them courage to leave an abusive situation, Rebecca felt like maybe there was purpose in what had happened to her.
In May 2021, Rebecca published a memoir titled Betrayed by Hope, My Nigerian Nightmare.
Writing the book had been part of her therapy, a way to process the entire experience from the first messages with David through the kidnapping, rescue, and recovery.
The book was emotionally raw and honest, holding nothing back about her vulnerabilities, her mistakes, her suffering, and her ongoing struggles with PTSD and trust.
It became a local bestseller in Indiana and gained national attention when it was featured on several true crime podcasts and book review platforms.
The book’s success brought more opportunities to speak and advocate.
Rebecca partnered with nonprofit organizations fighting human trafficking and online exploitation.
She worked with the FBI’s cyber division on educational materials about romance scams.
She became a voice for victims, someone who could speak from experience about the psychological tactics predators use and the long-term impacts of trauma.
By late 2021, Rebecca felt stable enough to attempt some traditional teaching again.
She returned to Westfield Intermediate School part-time, teaching digital literacy and internet safety to fourth and fifth graders.
Being back in a classroom with students was both healing and challenging.
The kid’s enthusiasm and hopefulness reminded her of who she had been before Laros.
But their innocence and trust also made her aware of how much she had lost.
Her personal life remained complicated.
She had tried dating a few times, but found it nearly impossible to open up to potential partners.
The vulnerability required for romantic relationships felt too dangerous.
How could she trust anyone’s intentions when she had been so completely deceived before? She went on a handful of dates with men introduced by friends, but inevitably her anxiety and distrust would sabotage any potential connection.
She accepted that she might be single for a long time, possibly forever, and tried to find peace with that reality.
3 years after her kidnapping in March 2022, Rebecca created a nonprofit organization called Trust But Verify.
The mission was to educate the public about online romance scams, provide support for victims, and advocate for stronger law enforcement action against international fraud networks.
The organization developed educational materials distributed to schools, libraries, and community centers.
They created online resources, including videos, checklists, and guides for safely navigating online dating.
They provided referrals to therapists and support groups for scam victims.
Rebecca’s work with Trust But Verify brought her into contact with hundreds of other victims of romance scams.
She learned that her experience, while extreme because it ended in kidnapping, followed a pattern that affected thousands of Americans every year.
The FBI’s Internet Crime Complaint Center reported that Americans lost over $139 million to romance scams in 2023 alone.
And those were just the reported cases.
The actual numbers were likely much higher because many victims were too ashamed to report what happened.
Through her advocacy work, Rebecca pushed for policy changes.
She lobbied for stronger requirements on dating platforms to verify user identities.
She advocated for increased funding for international law enforcement cooperation to pursue romance scammers.
She supported legislation that would allow US prosecutors to charge Americans who acted as money mules for international scam operations.
Progress was slow, but she felt like she was making a difference.
By 2024, 5 years after her rescue, Rebecca had found a form of stability and purpose that felt sustainable.
She still lived with her parents in Westfield, not because she couldn’t afford her own place on her part-time teaching salary supplemented by speaking fees and book royalties, but because being around family made her feel safer, she still struggled with PTSD symptoms, though they had decreased in frequency and intensity with continued therapy and medication.
She had learned to manage her triggers and had developed coping strategies that allowed her to function relatively normally most days.
She had a small circle of close friends who understood her limitations and loved her anyway.
She had meaningful work that combined teaching, writing, and advocacy.
She had the satisfaction of knowing that her story had prevented other people from becoming victims.
She had survived something terrible and found a way to build a life on the other side of that trauma.
Looking back, Rebecca could see how far she had come from the broken, terrified woman who had been rescued from a warehouse in Lagos.
That rescue had saved her life.
But the real rescue, the process of reclaiming herself from the trauma, had taken years and was still ongoing.
She would never be the same person she was before.
But she had become someone she could respect, someone who had taken the worst experience imaginable and transformed it into a mission to protect others.
The warning signs she had ignored in her correspondence with David now seemed so obvious in retrospect.
The reluctance to video chat regularly, the constant excuses about poor internet connectivity, the request for money, the insistence on meeting in Nigeria rather than anywhere else, the vague details about where he lived.
But Rebecca had learned not to be too hard on herself about missing those signs.
The scammers were professionals who had refined their techniques through thousands of victims.
They knew exactly how to exploit normal human desires for love and connection.
Her message to others was simple but hard-earned through suffering.
Trust your instincts.
If something seems too good to be true, investigate thoroughly before committing anything, money, travel, or emotions.
Verify identities through video calls at varied times.
Never send money to people you haven’t met in person.
Be especially cautious about online relationships that progress very quickly.
And most importantly, listen to the people who love you when they express concerns.
They can see red flags that you might miss when you’re emotionally invested.
Rebecca Thompson’s story became a cautionary tale used in schools, churches, and community centers across America.
But it was also a story of survival, resilience, and the determination to find meaning in trauma.
She had been broken by her experience in Laros.
But she had also been transformed by it into someone stronger, wiser, and committed to ensuring that other vulnerable people didn’t fall into the same trap that had nearly destroyed her.
5 years after Emanuel Okafor began his deception.
5 years after Rebecca boarded that flight to Laros full of hope and excitement, she stood in front of an audience at a women’s safety conference in Indianapolis and told her story once more.
As she spoke about the manipulation, the kidnapping, the rescue, and the long road to recovery, she saw recognition in the faces of women in the audience.
Some were nodding as she described the warning signs they had seen in their own online relationships.
Some were crying as they recognized how close they had come to a similar fate.
At the end of her presentation, a young woman approached her, maybe 25 years old, tears streaming down her face.
“Thank you,” the woman said.
I’ve been talking to someone online for 3 months.
He says he’s in Syria working as a contractor.
He keeps asking when I can visit him.
Your story.
It made me realize.
She couldn’t finish the sentence, but she didn’t need to.
Rebecca understood perfectly.
You just saved yourself a world of pain.
Rebecca said gently, hugging the crying woman.
Trust your instincts.
They’re trying to tell you something important.
As Rebecca drove home to Westfield that evening, she thought about all the people her story had reached.
All the potential victims who had recognized the danger before it was too late.
All the families who had been spared the nightmare her family had endured.
The trauma she carried would never fully heal.
The trust she had lost would never be completely restored.
But her suffering had not been meaningless.
She had turned her victimization into advocacy.
her pain into protection for others.
Rebecca Thompson had flown to Nigeria for her soulmate and found a kidnapping gang waiting at the airport.
But she had also found in the long aftermath of that horror a purpose that had probably saved dozens or hundreds of other women from similar fates.
In the end, while she would never be grateful for what happened to her, she had found a way to make it matter.
And perhaps that was the best form of justice she could achieve.
He’s an Australian-born man, non-indigenous.
He’s aged between 30 and 34, and he’s armed with a knife.
What I’ve just described to you is your average type of domestic violence homicide offender in New South Wales.
We know all of this because of a new interactive tool made by the state’s domestic violence death review team.
It’s based on three decades worth of data.
I mean, the numbers are no surprise to most of us.
We’re losing a woman a week to a former or current partner in Australia.
As New South Wales Police Minister Yasmin Catley admits, it’s depressing.
But she’s trying.
For 3 years, she’s been overseeing major changes to our laws and systems.
In 2024, New South Wales criminalized coercive control.
They made bail laws tougher and introduced stricter monitoring for those let out.
They introduced a new app called empower you, so victims can discreetly document abuse and seek support.
They’ve done blitz operations, mass arresting offenders.
But is it working? That’s the big question.
So for the women living this reality in fear, with abuse, with violent men, what’s next? What do we actually do next? I’m Gemma Bath, and you’re listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world’s most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them.
We don’t often have politicians on this podcast.
But time and time again, we hear about the barriers, trauma, backlogs, and roadblocks that are getting in the way of victims and their families as they try and seek help, justice, or support from our police services.
Yasmin Catley is only in charge of policing and counter-terrorism in New South Wales.
But, we were keen to hear from her, from someone in a position of power, to understand more about how decisions are made, how change is enacted, and why progress in spaces that are crying out for reform is so damn slow.
Catley comes from a working-class family and grew up in the Hunter and Central Coast regions of New South Wales.
Her husband is also in politics, and they have three daughters together.
She has been a member of the Australian Labor Party since she was 19.
She started off as an electorate officer in the federal party and worked in several senior ministers’ offices for more than a decade before entering state parliament.
She was elected member for Swansea in 2015.
And from there, she’s worn a number of hats.
Shadow Minister for Innovation and Better Regulation, Shadow Minister for Building Reform and Property and for Rural Regional Jobs, Deputy Leader of the Party and consequently Deputy Leader of the Opposition, Shadow Minister for Customer Service, Shadow Minister for Digital, both Shadow Minister and Minister for the Hunter, and as of 2023, Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism, which, of course, is why we’ve invited her on the podcast.
Here’s our conversation with Yasmin Catley.
Yasmin, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations.
Can you give us a bit of a background on your career because I’m fascinated how someone went from being a librarian to New South Wales Minister for Police and Counter-Terrorism.
I know there’s a lot of gaps in there, but tell me how how that trajectory has kind of happened for you.
>> Yeah, well, I still pinch myself, too, quite frankly.
Um look, I did join the Labor Party when I was 19.
I come from a working-class family.
My dad was a seafarer.
So, politics was something that was talked about a lot in our house and uh he was a member of the party, so I joined as well.
Um I remained a member of the party.
I I should tell you I was a member of the Swansea branch.
There were about uh 76 men and me.
>> Really? >> Yes.
Yeah, you can imagine a 19-year-old >> 19-year-old [clears throat] woman.
>> And guess what? I became the secretary of the branch real quick and that’s because uh what do you do? You give the woman all the work.
>> Oh.
>> Typical, right? >> Don’t make my blood boil.
>> [laughter] >> Oh, well.
You’d be boiling every day if you If I could tell you half my stories, Gemma.
Um you know, and then um I did I worked in public libraries uh for most of my career and then at the I did almost 10 years at the Refugee Review Tribunal, so I moved into Commonwealth public service libraries and um I loved it.
I really enjoyed my job and uh it was after my third child uh I was living in Dulwich Hill with my husband and the three girls and uh Anthony Albanese was my local member and he said, “Do you want to come and work in my electorate office?” And I did.
And uh but then we moved back home to Swansea and I worked for Greg Combet uh in 2014, the Labor Party was looking for a candidate for the seat of Swansea and Greg said, “You should do that.
” And he encouraged me to do that.
And can I say it’s the greatest honor of my life representing my community, the people that I live, work, and play with.
>> So, it sounds like you know, being the member for Swansea is is something you’re really passionate about.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> What about the police and counter-terrorism portfolios? What did you know about them prior to getting into that world? And was that something that you were excited about when you got tapped to do it? >> Well, Gemma, I’d spent most of my life trying to avoid police like most [laughter] people, quite frankly.
So, as a consequence of that, I didn’t know a lot about it.
Um but you know, being a minister of any portfolio, you you learn.
That’s your job to learn the portfolio.
You don’t need to be an expert from day one and no one can say I’m not a hard worker.
So I threw myself into that portfolio so that I could really learn the ins and outs of it.
I’ve traveled this state meeting police right across the state seeing what they do, the type of work they do.
I don’t think that there’s a command that I haven’t been at at least once, many several times.
I’m really invested in it and I’m invested in it because I don’t think I understood exactly the intersection between police and the rest of the community like I do today.
And that is day-to-day, day in day out.
Police is intersection 24 hours a day into community in New South Wales is probably the only organization that has that closeness and therefore that’s how serious it is and how important it is.
So I take that very very seriously in my role as their minister.
>> Minister, exactly what is your job? Because it’s a very different role to like the police commissioner, but you do work very closely with them.
So what are you in charge of? What are you doing on a day-to-day basis? >> Look, my job as police minister is to ensure that the New South Wales police is resourced to do their job which is keep the community of New South Wales safe.
>> Obviously it’s policy direction as well like recruitment, the recruitment policy for instance getting more boots on the ground making sure police is staying within the organization so reducing the attrition rate.
Obviously their pay and conditions of work are very important to me.
If we don’t look after police, they will walk out the door.
So they rely on their minister to make sure that their well-being is center and mind of everything every decision that I make and of course legislation because they enforce the law.
So working hand in glove with the commissioner to make sure that the laws that we are implementing that the police can then operationalize them on the ground.
>> So, the commissioner would come to you with kind of the issues and the problems and then you’ll help take that into legislation and law.
>> Sure.
Look, the commissioner and I speak several times a week, sometimes several times a day.
>> Really? >> Yeah, yeah.
We’re very close and and you have to be to do the job right.
>> Yeah.
>> Um that’s my view and you know, I’ll whoever is in charge of whatever we’re dealing with at the time, I will speak to the person who makes the decisions within the police.
Ultimately, that’s the commissioner, but he of course delegates responsibility to other members of his workforce.
>> You, when you took on these portfolios, I saw you criticized the previous parliament for leaving you with a quote mess.
>> Can you tell me about that? What what did you mean by that? >> Uh it’s about their attitude towards police officers themselves and their work their pay and working conditions.
Capping police officers’ wages sent their wages backwards.
And now, uh like looking back on it, we were the worst paid police officers in the country.
>> Really? >> Yep.
So, police were leaving in droves.
>> And I mean, I guess that means we’re losing quality police officers.
>> Well trained, that’s right.
Like police officers at 10, 11, 12 years like in fact, um I love data and I love evidence.
So, when we were looking at the wages agreement and going into the bargaining period that happened in 2023-24, um I got them to provide to me all the age groups that were leaving and when they were leaving.
So, it was sort of between that 9 and 11 years, that’s when police were leaving.
Of course, they’re the most experienced, they’re the ones you exactly want to keep.
The opposite.
So, we had to look at how we’re going to keep those.
So, we devised um their their pay and conditions, the the workplace agreement to specifically target those who were leaving first and or the most, and we were really able to customize a great deal, which was I think it was unanimously voted in.
So, they went from the worst paid to the best paid.
But, the other thing was um not only were they not paid properly, they didn’t feel supported as a result of that.
And there was no wrapping, you know, well-being around them.
We now have a well-being unit within the New South Wales Police, and that’s to specifically case manage individual police officers.
So, we can keep our finger on the pulse and say, “Hey, you really should take some leave, you know?” This is the sort of interaction that we want, and this is the the help that we want to be providing our New South Wales Police.
But, it was outsourced to some, you know, external uh works compensation scheme.
And police lost sight.
They had like internally, they had no idea of what was happening to each individual officer.
That’s not how you look after people.
That’s not how you look after a workforce.
I mean, I have fought hard all of my life for working people, for their pay and conditions, and police aren’t any different for me, and that’s the one thing they know I’ve got their back on.
>> So, would you say that that was your biggest challenge when you came in? And and how do you think you’re going? Is is the police force happier? >> Uh look, well, they’re certainly happier.
They’ve got more pay, 100%.
>> [laughter] >> Um and so they should be.
So, they should be.
Then, as I say, they’re now the best paid police in the country.
Um they they they know that I’ve got their back, and I do.
I genuinely have their back because if we don’t look after our New South Wales Police officers that do a job like no other.
Like they do they run towards danger when everyone else is running away from it.
And it’s a big job, [clears throat] you know? Like you see the worst of people on the worst day of their life.
But, equally, it can be extraordinarily rewarding because you’ve helped someone out, you’ve, you know, managed to, you know, help someone in crisis, or indeed save someone’s life.
So, I mean, it can be two very different jobs on two very different days, but I think ultimately when I talk to police, they say to me, “It’s the best job ever and thank you so much for looking after us and for supporting us.
” And I’ll tell you what, um you know, if they do something wrong, if there’s an individual officer that does something wrong, and of course that’s going to happen, then we should call that out.
And [clears throat] I think even the police officers in there, you know, they also uh believe in that.
But 99% of the time, let me tell you, they’re good people doing incredibly hard job, doing it very, very well, and most people respect that.
>> Was there anything that surprised you when you took on these portfolios, got up to speed with them? What surprised you about what you were dealing with? >> Yes.
>> [laughter] >> Lots of surprises, um good surprises and not so good surprises.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I I think I didn’t realize um at all that police were um so depended upon across community 24 hours a day.
And people think that they uh you know, they’re mental health uh practitioner, a youth counselor, uh a DV, you know, counselor.
Um because police are around 24 hours a day, I felt like every incident that happened, it was “Why aren’t the police doing more?” Like that’s how I was being questioned.
Uh “Why aren’t the police fixing that? Why aren’t the police doing this?” >> Mhm.
>> And I just was this set of eyes that came in and sat back and said, “Hold up.
These people are law enforcement officers.
They They can’t be everything to everyone.
That’s not how this works.
Other uh departments need to also take some responsibility here.
So, we need to work collaboratively together to you know, be able to come up with solutions for the community broadly, but the police cannot harbor all of this on their shoulders alone.
That’s not how this works.
And already we’re seeing some changes in uh the mental health incidents.
So, we’ve got we’re sign going to sign a memorandum of understanding with health soon so that uh we can have the right person right care.
So, that’s fantastic.
Um in terms of domestic violence, of course, we’ve got the WDV case workers now working in police stations in some areas.
So, people like right next door to a police officer, they’re sitting working as a team.
So, that’s fantastic working very closely with the sector.
Um and there’s other examples as well.
So, it’s just a fresh set of eyes coming in going, “Whoa, hold on a minute.
This doesn’t seem right.
” Um and that’s just being practical and being a community member myself.
And um we’re seeing some And and you know, police like the fact that um there’s someone there that, you know, is supporting them and they don’t have to be everything to everyone.
Um so, that was a surprise to me.
Um but good surprise, like real good surprise, is uh the the variance within the organization.
Like, it’s a big organization.
And you can have 17 different careers within the one organization.
It’s amazing.
Like, I I strongly recommend people check it out if they’re looking for a career change.
It’s um you can be anything you want in there.
You know, you just got to you know, go through the the the years of service and you can be anything you want in the New South Wales police.
And there’s never been a better time to sign up.
Always recruiting them in Australia.
>> [laughter] >> I’m dedicated, Gemma.
>> You’ve been in this role for 3 years now.
How do you think you’re tracking? What’s your report card on yourself? >> Aw, that’s a bit tricky.
[laughter] I I usually rely on others to do that for me.
Look, I feel um there’s always more work to do, 100% and I will keep looking for new technologies and new ways of doing things because that’s the sort of police force we want.
We want the police force of the future.
And if we just keep doing what we’re doing, then um we won’t be that workforce of the future.
And I think people of today, like young recruits of today, are very different to those who who are signed up 40 years ago.
We have to remember that.
So, it’s important that we remain contemporary and ensure that the future workforce want to sign up to the New South Wales Police because they know they can have a long rewarding career there.
How am I reporting? Okay, I’m not trying to avoid the question.
>> We usually are our own >> [laughter] >> our own best critic, so >> Uh yeah, well, that is true.
Um look, I think that I’m doing okay.
Um I’m still there.
I mean, uh you might recall that many said that, you know, within my first year I was not going to last very long.
Um well, I’ve outlasted most of those people who said that.
So, that’s a positive.
>> [laughter] >> So, there you go.
>> After the break, are we actually making progress when it comes to stopping men’s violence against women? And why is change in this space taking so long? I want to start with domestic violence because obviously that is a huge topic that we cover here, particularly men’s violence against women.
We talk about it way too often.
Um way too many cases, horrific cases.
We know that improving statistics in this space is an uphill battle, and like you mentioned before, it’s a a systemic issue.
It’s not just police, it’s not just courts, it’s kind of a multi-faceted area.
How do you feel about the progress that we’ve seen in that space since you’ve taken on those portfolios? Are we moving in the right direction in New South Wales in improving statistics with DV? >> No.
No is the answer to that.
>> is that? >> And I say that um with a very heavy heart.
>> Yeah.
>> And I say it with a heavy heart because there has never been more resources put into the prevention of domestic violence and the crisis end of domestic violence, which is where police intersect, uh than there is today.
And that in itself says what in the bloody hell is going on? >> Yeah.
>> It’s a problem.
Yeah.
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