He K!lled His Wife And Sister After Catching Them Having S3x In Walmart – Part 2

Otwell Collins was spending the rest of his life in prison, and Detective Torres was moving on to the next case, the next tragedy, the next family destroyed by secrets and lies.

Such was the nature of his work in a city where the American dream too often turned into an American nightmare.

Hi there.

I’m Gemma Bath, and you’re listening to True Crime Conversations.

Just a few weeks ago, an American serial killer was sentenced to life without parole.

It brought to an end a case that spans decades.

A case we covered in detail on this podcast in 2024, when there were only charges involved.

To recap, in 2011, a total of 11 human remains were found on or around Gilgo Beach on Long Island, New York.

In 2023 and 2024, one man was charged with murdering seven of them.

His name is Rex Heuermann, and he was a local architect who hid in plain sight for years before his eventual arrest in July 2023.

He’d been using up to 100 burner phones to lure women, mainly sex workers, before torturing them, killing them, and burying them.

Some were dismembered.

The women were aged between 20 and 34, and they were killed between 1993 and 2010.

Their names were Sandra Costilla, Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, Melissa Bartholomew, >> >> Megan Waterman, and Amber Costello.

We now know of an eighth victim, Karen Vergata, killed in 1996, who Heuermann admitted to murdering earlier this year.

To understand more about the evidence police found that led them to Heuermann, how they caught him, and more about the victims, I suggest dipping back into our original episode.

It’s linked in our show notes.

But in the meantime, we asked our original guest, Alexis Linkletter, who has a podcast called Unraveled, unpacking this case in detail, to come back on our show and fill us in on the latest from court.

Here she is.

Alexis, last time we spoke, it was October 2024.

At that point, Rex Heuermann had been charged with six murders.

And then, a few months after our interview, there was a seventh murder charge.

Were you expecting that momentum to continue because there were 11 bodies found in and around Gilgo Beach? >> I was expecting that momentum to continue.

I had always been of the mind that all of the remains found along Ocean Parkway were connected to Rex Heuermann.

Um but in the months that followed, I discovered that I was wrong about that.

>> Can you tell us a bit about that because two of the three remaining murders that we have an attributed were attributed to someone else.

>> Correct.

So, there were two victims who had long been unidentified and they were known as Peaches and Baby Doe.

And they were linked genetically in, I believe, around like the early um the early side of like the 2010s, um they were able to link them genetically and confirm that they were a mother and daughter.

Now, the remains were found really far apart from each other.

The mother’s torso was found in an area close to New York City where her appendages were found along Ocean Parkway.

And the toddler was found along Ocean Parkway about 250 ft from the remains belonging to a woman named Valerie Mack who Rex Heuermann was charged with.

Now, a little while after um Rex Heuermann was charged with that seventh victim, these two victims were identified as Tanya Jackson is the mother and Tatiana Dykes is the baby.

And not long after that, um the neighboring county to where the Long Island serial killer case basically is unfolding, which is called Suffolk County, the neighboring county in a different jurisdiction, charged a different man with the murder of Tanya Jackson who was known as Peaches.

Nobody has been charged for the baby.

Um and presumably I mean we think obviously they believe if this man killed the mother they killed the child as well.

So it was a big shock to everybody familiar with the case.

I don’t think anyone was expecting that.

Um I’m still in shock over it because there are so many coincidences tied to where these remains are found.

I find it really hard to believe that two different people would have chosen such precise locations for this.

>> And then the the third victim known as Asian Doe no one has been charged over that death.

>> No one has been charged with the death of Asian Doe.

There is a renewed push once again to try to figure out who they are.

Although when I was attending in court the plea hearing for Rex Heuermann.

So when he pled guilty there was a giant press conference afterwards and one of my colleagues asked the district attorney whether or not the DA believed that Rex Heuermann could be responsible for the murder of Asian Doe.

And the district attorney has sort of like an interesting personality but he said this to my colleague.

He said it doesn’t matter what I believe it matters what I can prove.

And it kind of made us feel like they believe he did that.

They haven’t proven it yet and especially because in these batches of evidence that the district attorney was sharing with the public along the way, you know, over the three years since he’d been arrested to go along with all the new indictments there are many many Google searches that have been provided to the public that Rex Heuermann made and a lot of them were about Asian victims.

And a lot of them were about Asian trans victims, which many people believe that Asian Doe was living their life as a woman because they were biologically male but found in women’s clothing.

>> Originally, Human was going to trial.

That was what we’ve been waiting for.

He’d plead not guilty.

It was shaping up to be enormous.

The sheer scope of you know, the number of victims, the years he was active, the evidence.

Can you kind of help paint that picture because at one point his defense team wanted five different trials? Like this was going to be huge.

>> It was going to be huge because with every new arrest, I mean, with every new indictment they made, you know, he was indicted for the murder of a woman named Sandra Castilla.

She was murdered in 1993.

Prior to that, the earliest victim we all thought that he was responsible for was 1996.

So, the timeline of when he was murdering kept broadening.

And so did the MO.

Um a lot of these victims were dismembered.

Some of them were not.

Um with Sandra Castilla, the woman that he was indicted for the seventh victim, um she had sharp force injuries and was left in the woods, not where any of the other victims were found.

For a long time everyone thought a different serial killer was responsible.

So, for that reason, we’re talking so many geographic areas, so many different MOs.

And his attorney did attempt to sever the trials into five separate trials.

He attempted several times to get evidence thrown out because the evidence against him is vast as well, but there was new DNA technology that was used in a lot of this DNA analysis.

So, it was going to be huge.

That’s why I mean, it took 3 years, all of the pre-trial hearings.

It was going to be a massive trial and it was going to be complicated, but the evidence against him is overwhelming.

So, I think he saw the writing on the wall.

>> Did you think Huermann was going to change his plea? That that is something that he would do? >> Um my instinct was no, but I heard early on from a source that he was considering that because I was of the the mind that well, what does he have to lose? You know, we don’t have the death penalty in New York State.

So, why not? Why not sit there through the attention and the media circus and soak all of that in.

I didn’t see a downside for him.

But, the more I’ve unders- gotten to know sort of his life through interviews with people who knew him and I’ve you know, developed a friendship with Rex Huermann’s wife wife’s attorney.

His name is Bob Macedonia and I talked to him quite frequently.

I realized that people like Huermann are much more on a spectrum than I believed initially.

And that he did appear to do this to spare his own family further embarrassment because a lot more evidence was going to be paraded out publicly had he gone to trial.

And I think a lot of that was going to make things look way worse.

So, weirdly, I mean, I didn’t think men like him were capable of caring about their families.

But, it seems to some degree he is or at least he’s capable of making these decisions to control a narrative around him.

>> Because in the last year or so, we have learned a lot more about Huermann’s wife and daughter in particular because they spoke to a documentary, right? What did you learn about them seeing that? [clears throat] >> Wow, so I was in that documentary um and I was fascinated.

You know, we have never seen the aftermath of an arrest of a serial killer who was living a double life that up close and personal before.

And that deal for them came together so quickly.

So, we really saw them in shock at first in total denial.

Um So, what I’ve learned about that family is that his wife had no idea.

Their marriage was very traditional as far as like their gender roles.

She didn’t ask questions.

He was the breadwinner.

He went to the city.

He commuted about an hour and a half each day.

He had kind of a separate life in Manhattan.

And because he sort of had control of their household and relationships, he would buy her a ticket to go somewhere and say you’re going on this trip, bring the kids.

And he was doing these things when she wasn’t home.

Um it’s hard to believe that someone could hide that much from their spouse and children, but it seems he has.

And the timeline fits together where he murdered a woman days before he married her.

And he was murdering far long before he married her.

So, in my opinion, I think he chose her cuz he knew he could get away with this with the type of personality she had.

>> Well, he certainly has been hiding in plain sight for decades, so that wouldn’t be a surprise.

>> No.

>> Can you talk us through how news of this plea deal played out? How close to trial was he? And how did you find out it was happening? You said you had a bit of an inkling.

>> Oh, yeah, I knew beforehand.

I had heard from a source long before, probably, you know, 6 months before it actually happened.

And I asked, you know, the DA at one of the court appearances about it, you know, during one of the press briefings afterwards, and then people started asking about it, saying, “Oh, is that really on the table? Is that really going to happen?” And then the rumors kept circulating.

Um so, I knew.

And the trial, I think, was going to take place I mean, they were talking about 2026, but I mean, it’s hard to know.

I mean, the judge was getting impatient with all of the the pre-trial um hearings.

But, you know, probably probably a handful of months out the trial was set to start.

>> Did we know that he was going to admit to an eighth victim as part of that plea deal? >> We suspected it.

>> Right.

>> Um we didn’t know for sure until we were there until it happened.

But, everyone suspected that he murdered Karen Vergata.

That’s the woman he admitted to killing and, you know, that was part of the deal.

I always believed that he was responsible for her murder.

So, a lot of us who followed the case suspected that, but we weren’t sure till that day.

>> Can you tell us what the actual plea deal that he agreed to was? >> Yeah, so he [snorts] admitted to the victims he was charged with killing, seven of them, and then he admitted to Karen Vergata, who he was just accepting responsibility for.

And in return, he is receiving three consecutive life sentences.

He cannot be prosecuted any further for any of these eight victims.

However, he can be prosecuted if any other murder victims are linked to him in the future, like when his DNA is put in CODIS.

If there are any other hits, he can be prosecuted for any other any other crimes, which again makes me think that the district attorney believes there are more victims.

And what’s odd and what really ruffled some feathers was that part of this deal was that he is to cooperate with the FBI’s Behavioral Science Unit, which means he’s going to be interviewed by the FBI, and he part of the deal is that he’s supposed to be completely candid and honest.

But, a serial killer doesn’t care about deals or what their their commitments.

We can never know whether he’ll be telling the truth.

And I think that bothered a lot of people, too, because he’s fascinated by the FBI.

They found a copy of Mindhunter in his house and his planning document.

He was taking notes from Mindhunter.

” And if you’re not familiar, Mindhunter was written by a former FBI agent named John Douglas, who basically was a founding member of the FBI’s Behavioral Sciences Unit and coined the term serial killer.

So, a lot of people think that Rex Heuermann’s very excited by this and it’s giving him some narcissistic validation.

>> It’s hard because I can see why people would be upset by that.

But then on the other side, we do need to learn from people like this so that we can catch them in the future and stop them in the future.

>> Yeah, there is value in it, I think, especially because serial killers like Rex Heuermann are very rare.

>> Mhm.

>> There are other kind of serial killers, you know, there used to be more, you know, but because of technology, serial killers operating through digital means like Rex Heuermann was, bringing women into his house to murder them.

I mean, that’s not really happening anymore.

Um the most recent serial killer prior to his arrest was, I think, the Golden State Killer and he stopped murdering in 1986.

But then, you know, he murdered 10 people and then it was cold, right? And they didn’t know who he was.

But for people to be murdering into 2009, 2010 the way he was, it’s highly highly unusual now.

So, I think, yeah, I think the FBI wants to understand like the compulsive nature of his crimes because he didn’t really have the self-preservation and the the self-control to stop when he should have.

>> And the fact that he got away with it for that long, given the world we live in and how connected we are and, you know, the internet, it it is quite unbelievable, really.

>> It’s really disturbing.

It’s really disturbing and, you know, because he stopped in 2010, it really would have been impossible.

You know, now with the way our phones are cameras are everywhere tracking, I think it he really got lucky in that time period because he was using burner phones and he was using, you know, sock puppet emails, you know, fake email accounts.

But that’s still now, I feel like if someone was doing that right now, they’d be caught.

So, it’s unusual.

>> Which is good, we should say.

>> Yes, we That’s very good.

>> Up next, Alexis takes us inside Houlihan’s plea hearing, describing the atmosphere in the courtroom and what he said during the proceedings.

You arrived at the court for the plea hearing at 4:45 am to be there while it all unfolded, which means you did get to see everything.

What was that experience like? What was that room like when you walked into it? >> So, for the sentencing or for the plea hearing? >> Plea hearing.

>> So, the plea hearing, um, it was a really it was strange.

Like, it was more intense than the sentencing.

It was a longer day.

It was really stressful.

And people were there for I mean, we were there for like hours and hours and hours.

Um, it was Yeah, it was intense, you know, it was strange It’s It was strange that he was admitting it.

It’s just it’s all just very shocking.

I still can’t believe that he did it and they caught him and he admitted it.

>> Did he verbally admit it in that hearing? >> So, what he did was he provided an allocution and sometimes allocutions are the deal that is made is that they’re going to go into detail about what they did there on the spot.

It’s my understanding that prior to his plea, he did what was called a proffer, which you basically admit everything.

Um, it can’t be used against you in court.

It’s just for it to strike a plea deal.

But in court, he did an allocution with yes or no answers or one-word answers.

So, the DA would ask, you know, did you do this? Did you cause the death of Megan Waterman or Melissa Bartholomew on this date? Yes, he would say, and then they would say, by what means? And he would say, strangulation.

And they did that eight times in a row.

Um but he wasn’t required to go into any further detail.

He really just admitted that he did it and said how he did it.

>> And the families were all there to hear that? How did they react? >> I’m not sure all the families were there.

Um you know, it’s very emotional.

You know, I I still I don’t know how the families do it, you know, sitting close to a man who took the life of your daughter or sister.

It’s like the thought’s unbearable.

Um the families are strong and do everything with grace.

So, there are things that are said, you know, um especially during the sentencing.

It was a lot of things were said by the family in the room.

Um but yeah, no, it was it’s devastating to witness, you know, and you don’t wish it on anyone.

>> The plea hearing was obviously the first step.

Then we had the sentencing.

Did you, as someone that has worked on this case for so long, did you think that that plea hearing gave you or anyone there closure? >> Um no, I don’t think I don’t think closure is possible, you know? It’s like with something so senseless, um and something so pathetic I mean, he’s so pathetic.

It’s like he’s this giant man targeting small women to feel powerful and in control.

And it’s what he did wasn’t hard.

What he did was cowardly, you know? So, I think it’s just I can’t imagine closure is ever going to be had.

It’s like we don’t know the rest of it.

We’ll never know, but I think for the families, it’s like for them it was a demarcation line, like, I’m done with you.

I’m going to be focusing on my loved one’s memory, and now I don’t have to think about you anymore cuz you’re going to going to be in a cage.

>> After court, there were a huge number of press conferences.

His defense, his wife, who we hadn’t really heard from, the DA.

What stood out to you the most from that flurry of press conferences? >> So, his wife, Alissa Rurup, did address the media.

You know, she hasn’t done much of that.

And what I thought was really interesting is like the second she was done, she had a prepared statement that she read from.

And immediately reporters were questioning again, how could you not know? How did you not know what was happening right in front of you? And there is still so much suspicion looming over her.

And what I want to keep conveying is that, you know, it’s unbelievable for people that she couldn’t have known.

But clearly she didn’t, because if the district attorney had evidence that she had knowledge or or was involved, he would have delighted in charging her.

So, they have gone every over every shred of evidence.

Her cell phones, her computers, there’s just no indication that she knew.

And I I think what I don’t think she should be blamed for not knowing, but I do think that she do is scare people.

Um that you could be living with someone lying to you to that degree.

I mean, she was.

And she’s not the first woman to be duped by a serial killer like this.

>> Well, she really is a form of a victim in all of this, too.

She’s had her life ripped to shreds as well.

>> She has, and you know, she starts as a victim, right? And then for every decision she makes since the arrest, it’s hard to blame her for all of it.

You know, the shock, trauma, desperation, processing this.

I don’t know that my decisions would be sound.

I don’t know that I would be able to trust my instincts about anything.

Um people think her participating in the documentary that the optics were poor there.

Maybe they were.

But maybe she was out of options.

It’s just really hard to judge her after the shock and trauma of these revelations that she was exposed to.

>> Let’s talk a bit about the sentencing that only happened a week ago from when we’re talking.

>> Yeah.

>> I want to start with Herman because we did hear briefly from him.

You mentioned the word cowardly before.

I feel like that kind of needs to be repeated again here with what he said, right? >> Yeah, so everyone was wondering whether or not he would speak because the defendant is often given that opportunity.

And when he said yes, everyone was surprised and he he began to speak and the judge yelled at him.

The judge was very intense and told him to stand up.

So then there was this like awkward 5 seconds where he’s like trying to stand up and he began speaking and he said something to the effect of, you know, and I’m paraphrasing, “My words have no meaning.

I am responsible for the words that were said today.

I’m going to leave it there.

” And he sat back down and the judge looked at him sort of annoyed and said, “You know, I know you’re probably sorry for what you put your family through, but are you a little sorry for what for murdering these innocent women?” And he sort of was like, “Yeah.

” But it was so hollow and strange.

It’s like, why say anything at all? I couldn’t understand.

>> Did he look remorseful at all? >> No, he does not care.

This man could not care less.

>> Yeah.

>> It’s not funny at all.

It’s just this man doesn’t care.

He would have done it a million more times.

After he murdered Melissa Bartholomew, he called to torture her family.

Like this guy loves hurting women.

And this guy does not feel bad about it.

It doesn’t matter that he has a daughter their age of when he was killing them.

It doesn’t matter that he’s married to a woman.

He doesn’t care.

>> In the sentencing, we also had the chance to hear from the victims.

That’s their chance to stand up and tell this man what they’ve done to their lives in the form of a victim impact statements.

Was that emotional hearing from so many family members in that courtroom? >> Yeah, it was unbelievable.

Um it was it was long, too.

It was, you know, I think there were about 16 total.

And yeah, some some made you like want to give them a high five cuz they just said the exact right thing that you know just hit him where it hurts.

You know, these men are narcissists.

Um so, one of the victims’ cousins, her name is Jasmine Robinson, basically went over the planning document that Rex Heuermann had written in 2000 about like, “Don’t leave DNA behind.

Don’t leave hair behind.

” And she’s like, “Well, you didn’t do that.

You couldn’t do that.

” And totally just like mocked him.

And you could tell he was getting like so mad.

Um but every single one was compelling.

Some made you cry.

Some made you furious for how articulate they were in explaining just the devastation um what this had done to their lives.

You know, Megan Waterman’s daughter spoke, and it’s just she lost her mom when she was two, and she is left with this like, “What Who would I have been? What would I have my my life have been like had I not had my mom ripped from me?” And I think that’s a really valid um question, and it’s so unfair.

>> I read that there was even applause when he was taken from the room.

>> Oh, there was more than that.

There was applause.

Um, there was applause.

There were screams from the family saying, “I can’t wait till you get raped in jail.

” Then they all started chanting ogre as he was walking out of the room.

And it was the whole thing was intense like that.

It was like the energy the entire hearing.

You know, one of the victims, um Melissa Bartholomew’s sister who received the calls the taunting calls that were made from her sister, her murdered sister’s phone, cuz he had her phone.

That’s how he called her family.

So, first it’s hope, right? She’s missing and now she’s calling me.

And um she said something like, “It’s been 17 years since we spoke.

” And then she’s like demanded that he look at her cuz he’s just been looking ahead like a coward.

Um there were a lot of intense moments during her during her impact statement, but it was very almost primal.

I don’t know how to explain it.

>> Is this over for you now? Do you think knowing that he is behind bars, he’s been sentenced with eight murders is this over for you? Because you know, we don’t know how many more there are out there.

You’ve been working on this case for so many years.

What does this mean for you? >> I don’t think it’s ever going to be over.

I think it’s part of who I am um because it’s not just about this killer and these victims, it’s about the way women are treated.

It’s about violence against women.

It’s about sex workers, the demonization of them and not the clients or the men who push them and force them and traffic them and make them do sex work, which is what was happening for the majority of these women, right? So, it’s never going to be over.

I’m always going to be speaking out about that.

And as long as there are victims I believe are connected to him like Asian Doll who haven’t seen justice I’ll always be monitoring and tracking.

Um, I wish I could do more.

You know, it’s kind of contingent upon what investigators do whether there’s any story left here.

So, I do feel like though this law enforcement team that has brought him to justice is phenomenal and I’m I’m sure they won’t stop if they believe he’s responsible for more.

But, it’s also not done for me because I have a book coming out about the case early next year.

So, I’m going to be probably talking about it for a while because like I said the implications it’s not him.

It’s society, you know, and I think that’s what I’m going to be talking about a lot.

>> Thank you so much Alexis.

We really appreciate your updates.

>> Of course.

>> Thank you to Alexis for joining us on this episode.

If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

It really helps people to find the show.

Thanks so much for listening.

I’ll be back on Thursday with another true crime conversation.