Husband’s Office Romance Exposed at Family Dinner by Devastated Wife – Part 2

It has lasting impacts and no one wants to walk around the world being like, are you one of them? >> I know that you’re both moms.

You also have kids, Haley.

How did you both kind of approach the idea of child care for your kids? Because I can imagine that would have been a very triggering idea to to conceptualize.

>> Oh, and it still is.

It’s still um the constant balance of trying to be a career mom but also not leave your children in the care of anybody um is a constant daily struggle.

And you know, my older child is um at the age where they want sleepovers and it’s something that I’m sorry, but we just don’t allow.

And you know, they want to be able to go on school camp.

I have allowed that, but the anxiety that I felt and had to I was pretty much incapacitated for the 3 days.

Um, and probably even a few days after because yeah, it’s just this constant fear that you can’t protect your children and also you can’t spot a pedophile and it only takes a short amount of time for someone to take advantage of your child.

I’ve spent 12 years working um in the sort of social work sector.

I’m a researcher now, but I worked in worked with families um in child protection.

So I really this is like encompassed my whole identity in life because I am fearful for my children but fearful for other people’s children.

I remember when I first enrolled my older daughter into into childare I was like I don’t want to just see working with children’s checks.

I want to know when people got their police checks done you know like I was really um heavy-handed I guess you would say on the on the daycarees that she went to.

um I really struggled if there was any male childare workers and not that there’s anything wrong with male childare workers but due to lived experience you’re always that little bit more worried um and like Haley when my daughter went on camp I gave her my um Apple Watch which is you’re not allowed to do but I was like I need to know that if she is not okay she can call us and then I just call the school all the time which you know for her is not ideal but you know we’re also not allowed like not you know not allowing sleepovers.

I heavily monitor technology and these are really good proect protective things and I would encourage parents to make sure they do their education and have knowledge and have understanding but it takes a toll on you as a parent because it’s this is no way to be.

Um, and even though we should all be aware of these things when you are a victim survivor of abuse and you have children, it’s something that you’re thinking about all the time, especially as they hit the ages you were when you first started being abused or any slight changes in behavior.

You know, you’re just that little bit more aware of risk.

>> Well, I’ve got two children currently in daycare.

I am not a victim survivor and it’s been something that’s been on my mind multiple times and I was hypervigilant while trying to pick a child care because as you said the amount of pedophiles that have been found in childare settings today last year the year before like in modern society is is unbelievable really.

Oh, and that’s why a a massive part of what LJ and I are trying to do is an overhaul of all of these safeguards which were meant to be in place in the ’90s and were in place but were not upheld and that were in place when all of these more recent um cases have come out.

We have these case studies now.

they should be looked at and we should identify what these cracks are and there’s been promises made um that things will change but nothing’s changed.

There’s no national working with children’s check.

Um you know it’s huge step in the right direction doesn’t solve things but it stops a lot of those perpetrators when you look moved from state to state and that is your first step in making that avoidable.

So you’re saying you’re saying that the working with children check is different in every state and territory which allows kind of abusers to manipulate the system.

>> If you say get have an allegation or a concern raised against you in Queensland >> and the investigation only just starts, you can relocate to Melbourne, get a working with children’s check and it won’t be automatically sent.

And you know the important thing to note here is I gave evidence in the Royal Commission into institutionalized sexual abuse.

One of the first and most important recommendations from that royal commission was a national working with children’s check and royal um and um reform around working with children’s check.

The royal commission happened 10 years ago that still has not been implemented.

There are many recommendations over half from the Royal Commission that have not been implemented and the Royal Commission looked at institutionalized sexual abuse over decades.

And the fact that these these um cases are still happening shows how important that reform was and it should have happened and it hasn’t.

And you know here in Victoria, I actually live in West Melbourne where Joshua Brown is located and he was um he’s the most recent case around um abuse in childcare.

My daughter went to one of the daycarees he attended.

Thank god nothing happened to her, but it hit our community really hard out here and the Victorian government has moved towards creating reform in a register.

But in my opinion, it’s it’s too little too late.

Like these things have been known.

They were clearly outlined in the Royal Commission.

And there’s really no excuse good enough as to why this reform hasn’t already happened.

We know it’s risk.

It’s clearly identified risk.

And there’s still no national working with children’s check.

>> It doesn’t feel like that hard a thing, that recommendation in particular, to put in place.

I’m confused as to why it hasn’t been put in place.

>> Maybe we need to ask the prime minister that question.

um because it there is really no excuse good enough and I know that there are many organizations that are advocating for reform such as the National Center for Araction and Child Sexual Abuse, Straight and Childhood Foundation, Snake like there are many national organizations that have been advocating for reform a really long time and we’re still here still having to have this discussion and all you have to Google is child abuse in daycare.

We’ve spoken about three cases here.

There are many, many more spanding over the last 10 years alone.

They just don’t all make it to the TV.

>> What does your advocacy for overhauling the system look like? I know that there’s a petition that was started by Nina Fenel.

That’s both of your faces.

I is that helping or how are you guys trying to overhaul the system? >> We need 20,000 signatures to be able to take this to the government.

um Nino is really driving us on the more logistical aspect of it.

But if we do get 20,000 signatures, we can start to open the door doors to a discussion around what’s needed in terms of reform around um the working with children’s check and training.

These are being advocated by multiple different victim survivors who were let down in various different settings due to this gap within working with children’s check.

So it’s important to note like we are one of many people advocating for this but it must start with government reform and ideally um an inquiry a national inquiry >> into the childare sector.

You know we are seeing individual states do versions of inquiries but we actually need a national response to this and remove the requirement of it being statebyst state because that’s half the reason we’re here in the first place.

You know there are many national standards.

Um this needs to be something that is prioritized.

You know, on average, um a working family spend $25,000 to send their child to daycare.

Um which is a requirement if you would like to work.

We need to make sure that that a child walks into a daycare and they are safe and no more like knee-jerk reactions.

Like in Victoria here, we’re talking about like no phones in daycarees, no iPads, cameras.

That’s all great.

A lot of centers have had those in place for a really long time.

It’s still not protecting kids.

So, there needs to be more done and whatever is done, it needs to be the same everywhere.

It’s amazing what you’re both doing fighting for the children of today, but in terms of justice in your own story, obviously your abuser is dead.

What does justice there look like? Are you able to get it by doing this fight elsewhere? Yeah, I think for myself uh at least justice is about accountability and in this situation we’re looking to hold the party that licensed and oversaw David Tuck and failed to undertake the appropriate checks.

And that’s not just prior to him being licensed, but that is for all of the years that he was licensed that um allegations were made.

Uh, in the end, if we can at least hold the council accountable, it paves uh, I guess a way for other operators to see that they can be held accountable because what we want to stop is the sweeping of under the rug.

It is at the moment easier for a childare service to move somebody on.

They’ve faced the repercussions of identifying identifying a predator.

Um, so And a big part of what we’re asking for is looking at um and whether that’s a financial punishment fine uh for not reporting.

There needs to be very clear reporting guidelines that individual centers and operators need to follow and if they don’t follow then they are then held accountable.

>> And for me I mean justice is a is a funny word because will we get justice? I don’t know.

But I would like accountability and I’d like there to be reform.

And I want all childare workers and teachers and anyone who works with children not feel like they risk there’s a risk in reporting um in terms of like will I lose my job? Will I get in trouble? Um you know what if I report and I’m wrong? like there needs to be conversations to h conversations that are had to make sure people feel empowered enough to report because this is what we need to happen and then have those reports be acted upon.

When you looked at the Joshua Brown case, which is the case in Western Melbourne, there are people who were like, I knew something or I thought something was wrong, but I didn’t say anything.

Even when I’ve worked within this sector, I’ve spoken to child protection, childare workers who were like, oh, I had an inkling, but I didn’t say anything.

And then it turned out, you know, the child was being abused.

We need to change that mentality.

If you see something, say something.

The bystander effect is is hurting so many people from women in domestic violence to children who are being abused.

We need to let go of that.

And if you see, if you even have a slight gut feeling, tell someone about it because children don’t have the language or the ability to tell someone.

That’s our jobs as the adults.

And then the other side of that is for parents and carers and teachers to have clear conversations with children about safety.

>> I was recently in Zimbabwe.

I’m working with a program that looks at the prevention of child sexual abuse.

They spoke so clearly to children about the right terminology for body parts, about what is consent, what is abuse in a really matter-of-act way.

And what they seen is that those children had a much higher rate of disclosure to adults because they had the damn language.

>> You know, you you and it’s hard and parents are scared, but if your child is being sexually abused and they know what a penis is and a vagina is, they’re way more likely to disclose.

And when they know that those aren’t dirty words that they’re going to get in trouble for, we we as adults have to reconcile why where why we’re scared of saying those words, why we’re scared of hearing them because that is we can’t stop child sexual abusers.

I wish we could, but no one’s sort of figured out that yet, but we can protect children by having frank and honest conversations.

And for me, maybe that’s what justice is, is a change in the way we communicate about abuse in general.

Even just uh I can’t help but think Kaylee when you’re telling us about bedwedding.

I’ve heard that numerous times now that child abuse survivors often show that sign.

So it’s like picking up on signs like that and using that as a conversation starter with your child to then have those conversations and knowing these kinds of you know like behavioral changes or or or things to pick up on to then start conversations with your kids.

>> 100%.

Uh there’s a lot of really good resources for parents to read and communicate to children.

So there’s a lot of um children’s books that I use with my own children, but then there’s also the education pieces for parents to understand and look out for the signs.

Uh I think the missing piece is more around if you do suspect, parents don’t know where to go and it’s not so simple.

And you know, the first time I was sat down and asked by my parent after this all came out, I said no.

I I I was still too afraid and too a confused to be able to disclose.

So I think it’s important um to understand that not every child wants to tell a parent.

Maybe they need um you know professional or you know a more private setting.

It’s um you can’t rely on parents to be able to get this information out of children in the appropriate way either.

But there’s also not a very straightforward way to access the information or the steps um to parents if they do sus suspect abuse.

So that is really I think a missing piece.

I’ I’d like to see investment to into services for children and parents who’ve experienced child sexual abuse so that when a child does come forward, parents know what to do, not just in terms of like reporting it to the police or child protection or the authorities, but also how to get help um how to help children recover and move through it.

um and how how to help parents do the same because it’s not easy for anyone in that instance when abuse has been um experienced.

But you know without support services the child ultimately continues to suffer lifelong pain.

>> You mentioned that there could be hundreds of victims out there of David Tux.

You’re both in your 30s.

You know, these are people in their 30s, potentially 40s, even older, that might have never told anyone what happened to them.

Do you have a message for them, having only recently shared your own stories? >> We believe you.

We believe you.

>> Thank you to LJ and Haley for joining us on this episode.

You can sign their petition, keep kids safe, at the link in our show notes.

They’re calling for an overhaul of working with children check schemes in Australia.

Make sure you’re following our show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify for updates on this story and all the stories we cover.

Thanks so much for listening.

I’ll be back next week with another true crime conversation.