Missouri Husband’s Secret Affair With Wife’s 17 Y/o Cousin Ends In Brutal Death – Part 2

Now, putting that image out there and we know that he abused children as young as two years old.

Now, that putting his face out there and connecting it with his name once again gives every one of his victims that opportunity to go, “Oh my goodness, that is the man that is the man that harmed me.

” And they can then from there understand that, you know, he is dead.

We have named him and identified him.

It’s just I think for us that really big missing piece of the puzzle >> is showing everyone what this guy looked like.

>> We had a victim survivor reach out and she told me that every year around the same time she would do a search.

She didn’t have like a name, she just had a few like key identifiers.

Um, and every year she would try and find out details and then because the first article came out, she was able to do her annual search and have a name.

Wow.

>> And a lot of this um was for me that’s what it was like when I was 18.

I went back to Baitman’s Bay to try and find an information to meet with other victim survivors.

Um it was from there that I was able to get like newspaper cli clippings and start to understand the extent one of the abuse um and the amount of victims but two just how um hidden this had all been and like the by not him not being named and there being no photos and no discussions.

This sort of just disappeared.

He just disappeared from the face of the earth.

And know we’ve had victim survivors that have come forward that are as old as my parents.

So he’s been doing this a really long time.

Um, and that’s why, you know, ultimately his name being the media is so important because even if those people don’t come forward, they might have a tiny sense of closure and know that there is indeed people out there fighting for justice for all of David Tuck’s victim survivors.

>> Let’s go back to the start and tell your story.

When did you both start going to this daycare and and how much care were were you in? Were you there multiple days a week, multiple nights a week? What did the care kind of look like? >> I was seven, so I was there quite a lot.

My mom was a shift shift worker, so I spent a lot of time there after school, before school, on the weekends, and in the evenings.

>> And do you remember what it looked like, what the property looked like? What the house looked like? >> Yeah, I do.

Um I remember it like I was there yesterday.

And also when I’ve made trips back to Baitman’s Bay, I’ve I’ve driven out to the property just to make sure it was real.

Um but yeah, I can remember exactly what it was like to walk up to the front stairs where the rooms were, where the bathroom was, um the backyard looked like.

And I think the thing that stuck with me and Haley and I have had this conversation is just how small it was.

Last year, Haley was able to find some photos on real estate.

com of the property and it was just so small.

And it’s crazy to me that any type of regulatory body walked into that place and said this is a suitable place for 12 12 or more children.

>> 12 or more kids.

That’s how many were there at a time.

Well, he this is I guess um part of the information we’re going to have to find out is he wasn’t meant to have that many children there at at any one time, but uh any person who was attending the center, whether a parent or somebody that was doing checks or, you know, the children themselves knew that on quite a number of occasions, uh he was frequently over the allowable numbers of children he was meant to have in his care.

Um, you know, even the property itself, the house was tiny.

You know, one single bathroom, two very small rooms, not enough beds for the children that were staying overnight, but also a very large dam that was completely unfenced >> on the property that uh, at least one child that I know of fell into.

Thankfully, was pulled out, you know, without any harm.

But to LJ’s point, it the property itself was not something that should ever have been approved to allow children in a care facility to be attending.

It wasn’t a safe property, let alone the man running it being a safe person.

>> Do you remember on the surface when you first went, was it fun? Was there activities? What was the pull >> for me? Um, I had gone to a couple of different primary schools in Baitman Bay.

So, there were kids I went to school with and you know, like there were familiar faces, there were so many kids.

The yard was big, there were toys, there was TV, we could watch whatever movies we wanted.

I remember we would watch like Titanic and there was another movie I can’t Greece you know and I didn’t have a VCR at home so being able to sit and watch those things and have access to things that I might not have had was was a big pull you know and it’s not like back then you know center daycare was really unaffordable and family daycare was was a preferred option particularly in small towns so when you walked in and you seen all of these other kids, people that you know, children that you recognized.

There was no reason to think even for a moment that it was unsafe >> and it was a necessity I guess you know for most all families there it was low-income families um with multiple children typically and they were working so you know similar to LJ would be shift working or you know hospitality workers that needed that extended hours care that was being offered uh rather than your standard after school care um you around and your sort of daytime child care.

That was that was the necessity for both most families that were attending the center, >> which even nowadays is hard to find to find kind of affordable child care for evenings and weekends and and those kinds of hours, you know, it’s it is hard to find in Australia.

>> It’s basically non-existent.

I mean, uh, my partner and I were looking at, you know, getting a babysitter for for a night out, you know, to go to the movies or at show or dinner, and it’s $300, you know, >> $300 a, >> you know, you’re getting a private nanny or you’re getting a private person who’s charging you $30, $40 an hour.

So, if it’s not affordable now, it absolutely was not affordable then.

So anywhere that offered after hours care that you could use a childare rebate for um you know of course people are going to use that service.

He was also well regarded in the community.

He was registered with the council when you look at some of the like flyers and things like that.

You know it is was promoted as this really safe familyfriendly inclusive space for children.

Did the grooming start pretty quickly? >> For me, it was instant in instantaneously from the first time I ever walked in that place.

>> After the break, LJ and Haley share what the overnight childcare center was like and how they felt when they first arrived there as children.

What did it look like? What What was the first time you walked into that place like? Um there was lots of affection, lots of toys, lots of you’re so special.

I’m so glad you’re here.

Um you know, identifying I guess uh vulnerabilities and then being able to like weaponize that vulnerability against you.

um particularly if say there was any like issues at home or you know if there was uh like poverty or anything like that he was really able to fill those gaps and create that trust and because there were so many kids you know when you seen like another kid sitting on his lap it wasn’t like it was just a normalized behavior and you know what I reflect on now is that the he didn’t just groom the kids he groomed the parents um because it was like oh come in for that cup of tea or like you know it became very friendly ly um almost like a community within itself.

>> Can you tell me about the odd rules that he had and he enforced on the kids? >> Yeah, he he had um some rules which I mean we’ve actually found in writing uh since our investigation started.

Some being for parents that they had to knock before entering, had to allow time.

Um, now if you compare that to a modern facility for child care, I mean you want to walk in and collect your child, you walk in and collect your child.

Um, but in terms of rules, there was for the children and these were of course kept from the parents, but you weren’t meant to wear underwear to bed.

Um, there essentially was a child each night that would sleep in his bed.

Um, and you know, I mean, yeah, they’re probably the most significant ones.

>> Normally, too, like for me, you know, I’d be getting dropped to school and he’d be like, “Oh, you look really sick.

You have to stay home.

” And that was a common occurrence as well for children.

Like there’d just always be one sick kid that that had to stay home, particularly if they’re of school age.

We have access to some correspondence between organizations, government organizations that was raising that as an issue uh between the organizations and he was given warnings essentially that that wasn’t appropriate behavior.

Um, nothing further was addressed or done by council when they were made aware that the government funded child career was having children sleep in his bed.

I mean, you would think that’s an immediate reason to shut down the center.

>> Yeah.

>> And that in the end was not even the reason that he was shut down for.

In the end, he was shut down for fraud.

and he that meant he was then allowed to move to a different state and continue essentially you know exposing himself to children.

I at that point was harmed again.

Um because our parents were never notified that hey these are allegations that had been raised.

Um you know he called my parents and said well you know listen I’ve stopped doing the child care.

It was something to do with fraud.

And then we went to go and have a visit, which it’s like had he had my family been notified, obviously at that point you cut ties, but no families were given that opportunity because, you know, in my opinion, it was swept under the rug.

>> How soon after you both started going did the abuse start? >> Mine was in like the second or third time that I attended.

>> Haley, do you remember? Cuz you were so young.

Yeah, I I was only 5 years old when I started at the center and it was the first time that I was chosen to sleep in the bed essentially.

Um, which was again, you know, fairly immediate to starting at the center.

>> And then the abuse in terms of frequency once he had started, was it every time you guys went? >> For me, yes, >> it was very often.

Um, as LJ said, it, you know, it’s almost like he picked a child.

he got to pick, you know.

Um, so it was definitely very frequent, particularly when most children were attending the center three to four times a week.

It would be at least once a week.

>> Do either of you or both of you remember how it made you feel? >> I don’t think I knew it was happening, but I knew it was wrong.

>> Yeah.

>> I think I also realized it was happening to other children.

So then I was confused about whether or not it was normal.

Obviously, there are, you know, physical responses such as like pain, uncomfortability, all of those things.

But for me, I just don’t think I knew what was happening other than it I didn’t want it to happen.

And you know, he was good at the manipulation, I guess, on ensuring that you didn’t tell.

And he himself normalized the behavior by being like, I love you so much.

This is what love is.

You’re my favorite.

All of that kind of typical sex offender behavior.

>> Were Were there threats involved? How did he kind of keep this up without >> I’m part of a bigger sibling group.

So he was like, you know, if you tell anyone like your mom’s going to get in trouble and then you will like get taken away from her and you won’t see your siblings again.

>> Yeah.

I mean, for me it was more uh you’re going to get in trouble, you know, this because you do you feel like it’s your fault or like you you know it’s something wrong.

you don’t know how to um express it or you don’t really understand what’s going on.

But if you when you’re told this is your fault, you’re bad.

You’re going to get in trouble if you tell anyone.

Um you know, at 5 years old, that obviously puts a lot of pressure on a child and causes a lot of confusion.

Um so ultimately yeah you just stay quiet because you don’t know you don’t have the ability to sort of weigh up the risks or understand that >> even the language like what do you say I wouldn’t have known what to say anyway >> and even and in the ‘ 90s I mean I’m a ‘9s baby too we weren’t really taught consent as a as a kid and and our bodies being ours or any of that kind of language that we use now >> I think the best was like that life that you know that giraffe.

I think I learned some stuff from there.

>> Healthy Harold.

>> Yeah, healthy Harold.

I think that was the best I got really.

>> Not one understanding what’s going on and two not understanding where there’s safe people.

You can tell that’s something that has really improved over time.

I mean, it’s, you know, we can still do better, but definitely as a child, like you said, in the ‘ 90s, you were told to do what adults said.

>> You did.

And if an adult said, “You can’t tell anyone this.

” Um, and you’re going to be in big trouble.

Uh, particularly when you come from a home that maybe isn’t as loving and supportive, then you absolutely don’t want to get in trouble.

So, you don’t tell anyone.

>> Did either of you try and tell anyone? Try and talk to your parents? >> No.

>> I do remember sort of one occasion where, you know, I was so close to disclosing.

was on the tip of my tongue and unfortunately at the time you know the person I was trying to disclose to was really busy and you know sort of by the time I got their attention they were a bit snappy of like you know what is it I’m in the middle of something and then you know I just withdrew and couldn’t get it out of my mouth but that was a very uh distinct memory that I have because it was at the point where I needed it to stop.

My situation is pretty similar.

I remember sitting at the kitchen table and I had gotten in trouble for something maybe at school and I remember my mom being like, you know, what is wrong with you kind of thing and I was so close to saying something, but I remember just like hearing his voice in my head, you know, basically being like, you’ll lose everything and it’ll be your fault.

So, I just didn’t say anything.

Because were there signs that you know in hindsight your parents if they had been looking might have noticed socially kind of mentally behaviorally that you you guys were doing that that kind of showed what was happening.

>> Oh 100%.

I look back now and think you know I was a very withdrawn child.

I was very emotionally um underdeveloped I would say.

So even sort of in your later primary years would um sulk let’s say or you know we called it sulking um I could never appropriately express emotions it would be you know something’s happened I didn’t like and I would just completely withdraw um things like bed wedding um was very consistent you know well beyond the years that um it was age appropriate and you know sexualized behavior Um I think you know these are all really really big indicators that again with education and understanding what they look like 100% um they were there but of course you know we were not in situations where um our parents were familiar with those signs.

>> I spent a lot of time struggling at school into fights at school not being able to maintain friendships.

Um I also left school in year 9 as a result of the abuse that I experienced.

But, you know, I think even up until he committed suicide, I think there are lots of behaviors that um if we were to look at it now would have would have raised concerns or should have raised concerns.

>> How long did the abuse go for? How long were you attending this daycare? >> The last time I was abused by him, I was 11.

I think 11 or 12.

I think 11 probably.

>> So, four four years.

>> Yeah.

That’s a long time to to be enduring this.

>> Yeah.

>> You mentioned, Haley, that you know, he got eventually shut down from fraud, but there were also a number of assault allegations while you were there that didn’t get him shut down, weren’t there? >> Exactly.

Right.

And I think um a lot more education needs to happen with the public in terms of what the process is when a child makes an allegation and the huge gap required to actually criminally charge and convict that person.

Um I think there’s a really big misconception that if someone is charged but not convicted that they’re innocent.

and David Tuck had allegations against him and charges against him before he ever even opened the childcare center and he was not convicted of those.

And we can tell you right now as we know who the original accuser was that that 100% happened and had that child been believed and had he been criminally charged, you’re talking dozens of children would have been protected from this man.

So I think a really key point is we need to believe children and we need to understand that not getting a conviction does not mean that they didn’t commit the crime when we’re talking about child predators.

You know because unfortunately expecting a you know 5 6 7 8 child to sit on a stand and give the amount of testimony needed for a criminal conviction is just you know it’s too much really to burden any child with.

>> We really need to re-evaluate how the system works now.

And I think that, you know, a lot of people read our story and go, “Well, that was then.

” But some of these things, particularly what Haley is saying, are not much different now.

>> It’s still harder than people think to have someone convicted of child sexual abuse.

And the younger the victim, the harder it is.

They’re relying on things like medical evidence and other forms of evidence that isn’t always possible to collect.

And, you know, I think it stands like children don’t lie about being abused.

the statistical relevance is so unrelevant that it’s it’s not even worth mentioning.

They might they might be confused or misidentify who, but their children don’t lie about being abused.

>> He went to trial for the charges you’re talking about in 1991.

So, it was 10 counts of child abuse against an 11year-old girl, found not guilty, and then by 1994 he had a he had a daycare.

So that means he passed police checks, working with children checks.

When you found that out that this man had these charges and then went on to abuse you in this setting.

How did that feel? I mean, it makes you angry, of course, and I think that’s a huge part of why LJ and I started speaking publicly about this and why we genuinely want to make changes in how people think about pedophiles or who they think a pedophile is.

Um, because someone this significant can slip through the cracks and just reaffend and reaffend.

um you know, you’ve got to say, “Okay, there must have been signs and we’re telling you, yeah, there was plenty of signs, but no individual took responsibility for putting up those flags.

You know, it’s very much um turn a blind eye.

” And a lot of people think, “Oh, well, that was the ’90s and this is now.

” As LJ said, well, we’ve had three major childc care sexual abuse cases in the last handful of years.

>> This is exactly the same.

and they use the exact same tactics.

Move states so they’re not traceable.

You know, as soon as there’s a complaint, move shift.

Um, and you know, it’s a lot easier for child care services to move someone along then raise the red flags and really in the end it’s everyone’s trying to protect their own business or themselves and it’s not the right way to go about it.

I mean protecting the children should be the number one priority.

And whilst there wasn’t um working with children check cards that look the way they look today back then, there was still required checks, there was still police checks, there were still reviews that needed to be done in order to have someone um be allowed to work with children.

And we need to ask, you know, for our case, what happened? How was this missed? but also acknowledge that in current day when we look at those three particular cases um within the childcare sector all of those people have working with children’s checks.

So where is the gap there? You know my I’m of the opinion rule of working with children’s check only works if you’ve been caught for something right? If you’ve never been caught, >> how are the people that you work with? >> Looking at behavior, looking at concerns, looking at gut feelings and what are they doing about that? You know, uh, one of the things that we’ve been advocating for is required training.

So that when people get a working with children’s check, they have to do training.

And some people say, “Oh, well, what’s training going to do?” It’s not about stopping the perpetrator.

It’s about the people working in these spaces having the ability to know the language, know what to look out for, know how to report, and have the confidence so that they can report because it’s not like it’s not just about like catching the predator oneonone.

It’s about child child prevention and the prevention of child sexual abuse being an everyone problem and an everyone issue.

And we all have a role to play in that >> cuz it’s almost like that working with children check would lull parents into this false sense of security.

Right.

>> That’s right.

It’s like um LJ said before, even looking for a private nanny or a private babysitter, first thing most parents are asking for is a working with children’s check.

>> My opinion, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on.

You can go online and you can apply for working in a children’s check and provided you haven’t been criminally charged.

You can have one.

Now, to get your driver’s license, you need to do a test.

To get your responsible service of alcohol, you have to do a test.

Why is it we are putting children in the care of somebody who has no form of qualification? Essentially, the only requirement is they haven’t been caught doing something wrong.

Uh I think that’s the biggest issue is understanding that uh working with children check it does not make them a safe person and there are multiple other things you need to be looking out for.

I’m confused how Tuck got a working with children check if he did have charges.

Is it because he was found not guilty? >> So are we.

It’s unclear to be honest.

It’s actually unclear.

There was some change in legislation um in the early ‘9s that sort of looks similar to like the modern day spent conviction schemes.

I I don’t know enough to speak on it, but I understand that there was some legislation change which may have allowed him somehow to slip through the gap, but at the end of the day, it’s not good enough.

I mean, like they weren’t it wasn’t like he did a break and enter or something.

He accused of abusing children.

He should never ever been put in a position where he was working with children.

Unfortunately, the daycare isn’t the only role that he had after those charges occurred >> cuz he worked with children across his whole career.

>> Yeah.

Youth detention, um, worked with children with disabilities.

He worked in a hospital, he was a bus driver, he was a scouts leader.

So, his entire adult life he worked with children.

>> The last figure I saw was that there were potentially 55 victims.

Do you think that there could be more than that? Well, that’s just of the child care.

That’s the um that’s just the childare number that that’s assumed, but I would say there were would be hundreds of victims.

>> Oh, definitely.

If you think the 55 is over a four, five year time frame and he was in his 40s when he committed suicide.

We know the earliest that we’ve been able to track that he offended was at 17 years old.

It’s hundreds.

It’s hundreds and hundreds of victims.

And this brings us back to this is why we want to get his photo out there, not just his name.

This is why we are putting this photo out there is so that every one of those victims who did try and speak up and weren’t believed and we know of numerous of them um that they know they’re believed now and they are supported and really that you know like this guy was a really really horrible person.

Up next, LJ and Haley discuss how they discovered their abuser had died and whether it changed how they felt about getting justice.

As you’ve mentioned, he died by suicide in 2001.

And he died while on bail for child abuse charges.

So, he was actually finally facing around, you know, a dozen charges and then he died.

Did you guys know about that? When did you find out about that? I found out my mom got a we I didn’t live in Baitman’s Bay anymore.

I lived in CRA and my mom got a call from someone in community who knew that we’d attended that daycare.

And then she asked and eventually I disclosed what had happened.

But she didn’t get any call from the police or the council or anyone.

And uh when I went back to Baitman’s Bay at 18 and 19, I was clearly named as a victim.

Um and you know, it was it was a lot to sit there and see my name as an identified victim and know that know wholeheartedly that no one called her.

And like I said, I’ve I’ve got a big sibling group.

So at any point in time, like she deserved a phone call, >> you know, she deserved the police to knock on her door and say, “Hey, this is what’s happened and your child’s been named.

” Um, but you know the the responsibility was put on her and to get like a random phone call I can’t imagine what that would have been like for her or for any parent.

And from what I gather like this is a lot of how parents found out was through community not through formal um contact with agencies.

>> I’m confused as to why the police wouldn’t have continued to investigate because even if he died, there are victims here.

Oh, exactly.

And that is something that has really enraged us since I found out, which I think was around six or seven years ago, that I realized, and this was through contact with LJ, that he was never publicly named.

Um, and we found that out through newspaper articles, which essentially said, “We’ve been told we can’t name this man.

” Um, and you know, ironically within the same article, it says any victims that come forward can have counseling and you know, we’re offering all of these services.

Okay, well that’s fantastic.

At that time I was around 8 or 9 years old.

How was I knowing who I was contacting or you know I don’t read the newspaper.

>> Um, my family was not in Bman’s Bay anymore which meant they were not reading the newspaper where it was published.

So, at what point were they genuinely actually offering services and support to the families? It seems like a very empty offer when you say, “We’re not going to tell you the perpetrator’s name.

Um, we’re not going to tell you any uh information about him, but if you were his victim, please come and tell us and we’ll support you.

” I mean, excuse my French, but what a load of [ __ ] >> Yeah.

And again like it looks at that like the onus and responsibility on children to get help for abuse um when it was something that was done to them by adults and there are adults that a responsibility had a responsibility to protect them >> and it’s not a situation of well we don’t know who the perpetrator was or we don’t know who had contact with him.

This was a registered childare center where parents were receiving the child care subsidy for their children attending which means the council and the other uh state organizations had a very clear list of children that had had contact with a known predator.

So at that point um whether or not they knew that the all of these children had been exposed to abuse, they knew that they were at a very high risk of it and they still chose to not contact the families directly and offer that support.

>> Is that illegal? As far as you know, >> it should be.

>> It’s not.

Um it’s it’s just Yeah, it should be illegal and it’s unethical.

uh you know we could talk about like ethics and morals because they certainly were not considered at that time.

>> Yeah.

>> And we can’t even say like I think it’s really important to be here this is nothing about the time because there was legislation in place.

There were rules in place.

Organizations both state and nationally knew about institutional child sexual abuse.

It wasn’t like they’d never heard of this thing before.

It was documented.

They knew there were processes that could have been followed.

There were things that could have been done.

and they weren’t done for whatever reason.

>> Well, Nina Fenel, who you mentioned earlier, you wrote your original article with, she mentioned that the decision, you know, it goes further than that.

They decided not to reach out to schools, to local counselors, to places where other children were to try and spread the word, you know, help victims, support the community.

Like that’s a very Yeah, it goes further than just not ringing the list of names on the child care.

And the question I guess to that is who benefited from that because victims didn’t benefit.

The families impacted didn’t benefit.

>> There was only one person at that point.

>> I mean the perpetrators dead.

So it didn’t you know there was no risks there of naming the wrong person.

At this point there is only one group of people that benefited and you know really it was completely the wrong thing to do.

And it what it meant was so many victims have had not had the opportunity to access support and heal from this experience when they could have, you know, in early childhood when really that offer of support would have been so much more significant than now as adults where we’re here trying to fight for our own justice, spending six, seven years in a court case trying to fight for accountability.

I mean, we shouldn’t have to.

>> As a victim survivor, something that I’ve really struggled with throughout my whole life is wondering who I could have been.

Had not only had this had not happened, but had I got the support needed.

You know, my life would have been infinitely easier and I would have been able to have opportunities.

uh my trajectory, my ability to function in the world would have been so much different because I know now from my own professional experience that recovery and healing starts with safe places to have conversations and to talk about it and have, you know, even if it’s not justice, but some sort of accountability and acknowledgement that it happened.

And without having him named, most of us never got that.

And then we had to move through the world alone in our grief and in our pain without even being able to Google this man to find out if it was real.

I can’t tell you the amount of times.

And I thought, did I just make this up? Like, is this not a real thing? And it wasn’t until I found other victim survivors and I was like, no, actually, this really happened because you can Google um sex offenders from like the 60s and their names come up, >> but David’s didn’t come up.

Not even so much as like a anything anywhere.

Can you expand on on what you mean for both of you on how this abuse and this the trauma that followed affected you into your teenage years and adulthood and how it kind of shaped your experiences? >> For sure.

I mean, I left school in year nine.

I have struggled with uh I struggled with substance use well into my 20s.

I’ve struggled with suicidality and self harm.

Um, I’ve chronic social anxiety.

Um, all of my study I’ve done now.

Like I’m lucky I’ve turned my life around.

I’m an academic now, but I had to I went back to uni in my 30s.

I haven’t, you know, I’ve struggled with relationships with my family.

I’ve experienced intimate part intimate partner violence.

Um, and these all of these things can be like deeply linked into the experiences of child sexual abuse and not being able to access support.

It’s really hard to move on with your life if you have nowhere to go.

Um, and you don’t know how to ask for help.

You don’t even know how to name what’s happened to you.

And you know, when we think about like we we started the conversation thinking about words like consent, uh, a really good way to not understand consent is if you’ve never had it.

And so then there’s risks of being like revictimized um, experiencing further abuse um, in multiple different settings.

And that has been my experience really up until I was in my 20s and met my husband and that’s a long time to suffer.

I you know and a lot of the similar experiences to LJ but another massive impact for me and it’s I think one that we’re slowly learning more about but it’s still not talked about often is um I’ve developed an autoimmune disease which when you go back and you look at the statistics is heavily linked to early childhood trauma to significant stress now it has progressed to a point now in my life at 34 years old where it’s attacking my bones and you know I need constant monthly treatment that is very hard to access that is not continual and is not always effective and essentially at some point where this disease progresses the um patient can end up in a wheelchair and lose mobility and that’s a very serious issue and that is worst case scenario yes but there are um like I said I’m young I’m very much on the younger end of people that should be suffering to the severity that I have this autoimmune and it is not something that I will ever recover from.

And of course that within itself, you know, with the anxiety and depression I already have from the abuse on top of dealing with, you know, the the physical manifestation of that, it’s it’s really significant.

>> People also don’t talk about how this impacts parenting.

you know, I’m super hypervigilant.

You know, my children aren’t really allowed out of my sight.

You know, like I’m super protective of them and they’re really good things to have, but being hypervigilant all the time is not good for your immune system.

It’s not good for your mental health.

It’s not good for your sleep.

It has lasting impacts and no one wants to walk around the world being like, are you one of them? >> I know that you’re both moms.

You also have kids, Haley.

How did you both kind of approach the idea of child care for your kids? Because I can imagine that would have been a very triggering idea to to conceptualize.

>> Oh, and it still is.

It’s still um the constant balance of trying to be a career mom but also not leave your children in the care of anybody um is a constant daily struggle.

And you know, my older child is um at the age where they want sleepovers and it’s something that I’m sorry, but we just don’t allow.

And you know, they want to be able to go on school camp.

I have allowed that, but the anxiety that I felt and had to I was pretty much incapacitated for the 3 days.

Um, and probably even a few days after because yeah, it’s just this constant fear that you can’t protect your children and also you can’t spot a pedophile and it only takes a short amount of time for someone to take advantage of your child.

I’ve spent 12 years working um in the sort of social work sector.

I’m a researcher now, but I worked in worked with families um in child protection.

So I really this is like encompassed my whole identity in life because I am fearful for my children but fearful for other people’s children.

I remember when I first enrolled my older daughter into into childare I was like I don’t want to just see working with children’s checks.

I want to know when people got their police checks done you know like I was really um heavy-handed I guess you would say on the on the daycarees that she went to.

um I really struggled if there was any male childare workers and not that there’s anything wrong with male childare workers but due to lived experience you’re always that little bit more worried um and like Haley when my daughter went on camp I gave her my um Apple Watch which is you’re not allowed to do but I was like I need to know that if she is not okay she can call us and then I just call the school all the time which you know for her is not ideal but you know we’re also not allowed like not you know not allowing sleepovers.

I heavily monitor technology and these are really good proect protective things and I would encourage parents to make sure they do their education and have knowledge and have understanding but it takes a toll on you as a parent because it’s this is no way to be.

Um, and even though we should all be aware of these things when you are a victim survivor of abuse and you have children, it’s something that you’re thinking about all the time, especially as they hit the ages you were when you first started being abused or any slight changes in behavior.

You know, you’re just that little bit more aware of risk.

>> Well, I’ve got two children currently in daycare.

I am not a victim survivor and it’s been something that’s been on my mind multiple times and I was hypervigilant while trying to pick a child care because as you said the amount of pedophiles that have been found in childare settings today last year the year before like in modern society is is unbelievable really.

Oh, and that’s why a a massive part of what LJ and I are trying to do is an overhaul of all of these safeguards which were meant to be in place in the ’90s and were in place but were not upheld and that were in place when all of these more recent um cases have come out.

We have these case studies now.

they should be looked at and we should identify what these cracks are and there’s been promises made um that things will change but nothing’s changed.

There’s no national working with children’s check.

Um you know it’s huge step in the right direction doesn’t solve things but it stops a lot of those perpetrators when you look moved from state to state and that is your first step in making that avoidable.

So you’re saying you’re saying that the working with children check is different in every state and territory which allows kind of abusers to manipulate the system.

>> If you say get have an allegation or a concern raised against you in Queensland >> and the investigation only just starts, you can relocate to Melbourne, get a working with children’s check and it won’t be automatically sent.

And you know the important thing to note here is I gave evidence in the Royal Commission into institutionalized sexual abuse.

One of the first and most important recommendations from that royal commission was a national working with children’s check and royal um and um reform around working with children’s check.

The royal commission happened 10 years ago that still has not been implemented.

There are many recommendations over half from the Royal Commission that have not been implemented and the Royal Commission looked at institutionalized sexual abuse over decades.

And the fact that these these um cases are still happening shows how important that reform was and it should have happened and it hasn’t.

And you know here in Victoria, I actually live in West Melbourne where Joshua Brown is located and he was um he’s the most recent case around um abuse in childcare.

My daughter went to one of the daycarees he attended.

Thank god nothing happened to her, but it hit our community really hard out here and the Victorian government has moved towards creating reform in a register.

But in my opinion, it’s it’s too little too late.

Like these things have been known.

They were clearly outlined in the Royal Commission.

And there’s really no excuse good enough as to why this reform hasn’t already happened.

We know it’s risk.

It’s clearly identified risk.

And there’s still no national working with children’s check.

>> It doesn’t feel like that hard a thing, that recommendation in particular, to put in place.

I’m confused as to why it hasn’t been put in place.

>> Maybe we need to ask the prime minister that question.

um because it there is really no excuse good enough and I know that there are many organizations that are advocating for reform such as the National Center for Araction and Child Sexual Abuse, Straight and Childhood Foundation, Snake like there are many national organizations that have been advocating for reform a really long time and we’re still here still having to have this discussion and all you have to Google is child abuse in daycare.

We’ve spoken about three cases here.

There are many, many more spanding over the last 10 years alone.

They just don’t all make it to the TV.

>> What does your advocacy for overhauling the system look like? I know that there’s a petition that was started by Nina Fenel.

That’s both of your faces.

I is that helping or how are you guys trying to overhaul the system? >> We need 20,000 signatures to be able to take this to the government.

um Nino is really driving us on the more logistical aspect of it.

But if we do get 20,000 signatures, we can start to open the door doors to a discussion around what’s needed in terms of reform around um the working with children’s check and training.

These are being advocated by multiple different victim survivors who were let down in various different settings due to this gap within working with children’s check.

So it’s important to note like we are one of many people advocating for this but it must start with government reform and ideally um an inquiry a national inquiry >> into the childare sector.

You know we are seeing individual states do versions of inquiries but we actually need a national response to this and remove the requirement of it being statebyst state because that’s half the reason we’re here in the first place.

You know there are many national standards.

Um this needs to be something that is prioritized.

You know, on average, um a working family spend $25,000 to send their child to daycare.

Um which is a requirement if you would like to work.

We need to make sure that that a child walks into a daycare and they are safe and no more like knee-jerk reactions.

Like in Victoria here, we’re talking about like no phones in daycarees, no iPads, cameras.

That’s all great.

A lot of centers have had those in place for a really long time.

It’s still not protecting kids.

So, there needs to be more done and whatever is done, it needs to be the same everywhere.

It’s amazing what you’re both doing fighting for the children of today, but in terms of justice in your own story, obviously your abuser is dead.

What does justice there look like? Are you able to get it by doing this fight elsewhere? Yeah, I think for myself uh at least justice is about accountability and in this situation we’re looking to hold the party that licensed and oversaw David Tuck and failed to undertake the appropriate checks.

And that’s not just prior to him being licensed, but that is for all of the years that he was licensed that um allegations were made.

Uh, in the end, if we can at least hold the council accountable, it paves uh, I guess a way for other operators to see that they can be held accountable because what we want to stop is the sweeping of under the rug.

It is at the moment easier for a childare service to move somebody on.

They’ve faced the repercussions of identifying identifying a predator.

Um, so And a big part of what we’re asking for is looking at um and whether that’s a financial punishment fine uh for not reporting.

There needs to be very clear reporting guidelines that individual centers and operators need to follow and if they don’t follow then they are then held accountable.

>> And for me I mean justice is a is a funny word because will we get justice? I don’t know.

But I would like accountability and I’d like there to be reform.

And I want all childare workers and teachers and anyone who works with children not feel like they risk there’s a risk in reporting um in terms of like will I lose my job? Will I get in trouble? Um you know what if I report and I’m wrong? like there needs to be conversations to h conversations that are had to make sure people feel empowered enough to report because this is what we need to happen and then have those reports be acted upon.

When you looked at the Joshua Brown case, which is the case in Western Melbourne, there are people who were like, I knew something or I thought something was wrong, but I didn’t say anything.

Even when I’ve worked within this sector, I’ve spoken to child protection, childare workers who were like, oh, I had an inkling, but I didn’t say anything.

And then it turned out, you know, the child was being abused.

We need to change that mentality.

If you see something, say something.

The bystander effect is is hurting so many people from women in domestic violence to children who are being abused.

We need to let go of that.

And if you see, if you even have a slight gut feeling, tell someone about it because children don’t have the language or the ability to tell someone.

That’s our jobs as the adults.

And then the other side of that is for parents and carers and teachers to have clear conversations with children about safety.

>> I was recently in Zimbabwe.

I’m working with a program that looks at the prevention of child sexual abuse.

They spoke so clearly to children about the right terminology for body parts, about what is consent, what is abuse in a really matter-of-act way.

And what they seen is that those children had a much higher rate of disclosure to adults because they had the damn language.

>> You know, you you and it’s hard and parents are scared, but if your child is being sexually abused and they know what a penis is and a vagina is, they’re way more likely to disclose.

And when they know that those aren’t dirty words that they’re going to get in trouble for, we we as adults have to reconcile why where why we’re scared of saying those words, why we’re scared of hearing them because that is we can’t stop child sexual abusers.

I wish we could, but no one’s sort of figured out that yet, but we can protect children by having frank and honest conversations.

And for me, maybe that’s what justice is, is a change in the way we communicate about abuse in general.

Even just uh I can’t help but think Kaylee when you’re telling us about bedwedding.

I’ve heard that numerous times now that child abuse survivors often show that sign.

So it’s like picking up on signs like that and using that as a conversation starter with your child to then have those conversations and knowing these kinds of you know like behavioral changes or or or things to pick up on to then start conversations with your kids.

>> 100%.

Uh there’s a lot of really good resources for parents to read and communicate to children.

So there’s a lot of um children’s books that I use with my own children, but then there’s also the education pieces for parents to understand and look out for the signs.

Uh I think the missing piece is more around if you do suspect, parents don’t know where to go and it’s not so simple.

And you know, the first time I was sat down and asked by my parent after this all came out, I said no.

I I I was still too afraid and too a confused to be able to disclose.

So I think it’s important um to understand that not every child wants to tell a parent.

Maybe they need um you know professional or you know a more private setting.

It’s um you can’t rely on parents to be able to get this information out of children in the appropriate way either.

But there’s also not a very straightforward way to access the information or the steps um to parents if they do sus suspect abuse.

So that is really I think a missing piece.

I’ I’d like to see investment to into services for children and parents who’ve experienced child sexual abuse so that when a child does come forward, parents know what to do, not just in terms of like reporting it to the police or child protection or the authorities, but also how to get help um how to help children recover and move through it.

um and how how to help parents do the same because it’s not easy for anyone in that instance when abuse has been um experienced.

But you know without support services the child ultimately continues to suffer lifelong pain.