And, you know, he doesn’t want to be held accountable for those.

Well, it’s a weird thing.

It’s a weird thing to say because on day two, February 2nd, he gave a press conference in which he said the words, and again, I’m going to paraphrase, but he said this twice.

Um, there’s no concern out there in the community.

Like, you’re safe.

There’s no danger for you all.

and you know, we’re giving up the scene uh and we’re calling off the search.

Well, you know, here we are weeks later, months later, and we now have a guy uh a menacing ski mask on who we can’t find.

And he then says the words, “Yes, there this guy could could strike again.

” Now, that is not the word.

And he said those two things, right? Mhm.

Those are that does not comport with I know why he was here and I’ve known since day one.

They are literally the opposite of each other.

Yeah, they’re Yeah, they’re completely the opposite.

And again, I I think I think it’s just the way he is.

I I think it’s just his inability to communicate the things that he wants to say.

Um I have that problem when I argue with my wife.

Yeah, but you don’t make up entire things, right? Right.

One is one scenario.

Unfortunately has that problem in the public.

This is not a [laughter] this is not a a slip up.

This is an entire two entirely different theories.

And look, if and when this does go to trial, he’s going to have to be held accountable for that, right? He’s going to be called on the stand for that.

And at least I hope he is.

The prosecutor may not want to, but the defense attorney damn sure is going to want to get the sheriff up there.

Defense would have a lot to work with.

And again, I’m so glad that you’re optimistic about getting to trial.

I just want to find Nancy at this point.

I’d be so satisfied with just finding her.

Um, you know, just to to to give the family uh some peace.

I I don’t even know if convictions and prison sentences even help, you know, closure for for families.

Some for some it does, but for others they don’t even.

Listen, one of the Idaho uh four victims uh parents really didn’t they didn’t even attend any of the court proceedings for Brian Coberger because it didn’t make a difference to them.

They said it won’t make any difference to us.

So I I understand how how some victims can take it very very differently.

I do want to ask you about something that I learned just this in this week.

Um did an episode yesterday in fact with uh with information from the investigation that the perpetrator used the back kitchen door.

And if you’re looking at the house from the back, you’re at the pool, you’re looking at the back, there are three doors.

This one’s in the middle and it’s not very visible because it’s perpendicular to the length of the house, but it effectively goes into the kitchen.

And there’s two doors.

There’s a screen door and then there’s the hard wooden door.

And that both of those doors were open.

The screen door was propped open with NY’s flower pots.

And that the gate to the back door was also propped open with flower pots.

You’re a homicide detective.

Mhm.

You know now what that looks like and and where that would take you investigating this case knowing full well that he went out front door cuz that’s where NY’s blood trail leads.

It leads down the walkway and out to presumably the waiting car where the blood stops.

What does it make you think of? Well, it makes me think that there were at least two individuals.

And you know, I’ve said this for quite a while that I think it’s two to four, probably three to four individuals that, you know, were involved in this whole thing.

Whether or not, you know, three or four people were at the house that night, I’m fairly certain that um it’s my belief that there were at least two individuals there.

It’s my belief that night because of the logistics of it all.

There’s no video of a car going in front of this the house at all.

There’s no video of a car being in a driveway.

The only thing on the video other than the natural stuff that’s always there is the one bad guy.

And there’s he’s there two different times, two different dates.

So, it’s obvious to me that this these individuals um did a scout.

They did a recon of that.

And how long that recon was, I don’t know, but I could imagine that it may be days or even weeks of reconing the area.

Well, you know what? If you believe um Fox News’s Michael Ruiz, Fox Digital has two law enforcement sources who told him that that image of the guy without the backpack and without the gun is from January 11th.

So that would be two weeks in advance of of scouting.

So yeah, I mean it it makes total sense that this was a planned operation based on what I’ve seen as far as how it went down and you know what’s knowledge to the public.

um [clears throat] having the doors propped open.

Someone could have been inside the house, you know.

I guess she went in through the garage.

Um someone could have been waiting in the garage for her.

Shut the garage door, you know, get a hold of her.

But I would really like to know, and the sheriff’s department and the FBI haven’t said this, is uh whether or not there was any forced entry to that back door because we all know that there wasn’t forced entry to the front of of the house because it was on camera for 40ome days and I did not see any damage to any of the three back doors on the footage that I saw from the drones flying around.

So, it’s a great question because it’s impossible to see um the door that I have since learned from my sources was used because again, if you’re looking straight at the house from the backyard, it’s it’s a it’s perpendicular to the house.

So, you can’t see the vertical nature of that.

If it opened up the screen door, you’d see the screen door sitting there open.

It’s to the left of the patio.

It’s basically the left side of the patio.

But I do know that um my law enforcement source on day three told me there was forced entry.

Um now you tell me because uh Nancy Guthri’s children told the police that Nancy often left her back doors unlocked.

That was another um law enforcement source told me that that her kids had reported to the police that she often left those doors unlocked.

So, if a door is unlocked and you are using it to get in and you’re putting a plant there, could that be considered forced entry or do you have to break something to force entry? No.

Force entry is usually you’re forcing your way in.

Whether it’s, you know, cutting a screen, breaking a window, you know, breaking a window to reach in and grab a door to unlock it, prying a door open, kicking a door open.

That’s more of forced entry.

Um, is it possible that, you know, Nancy left her her doors unlocked? Sure, absolutely.

Um, you I grew up in a small town in Michigan and we never locked our doors to the house or cars in the 18 years that I lived there.

And, um, ever since, you know, I’ve lived in my house here.

We lock our doors.

We lock the house.

Um, and still my car has been burglarized.

You know, you know, I’m wondering, uh, there’s two doors.

So, we were all confused when Savannah said, uh, the back doors plural were propped open.

We thought, wait a minute.

My source in the very beginning said, back door wide open, not plural.

But now it’s obvious it’s two doors to the same entrance.

It’s the screen door and then the the wooden door.

And maybe, right, not two entrances, one entrance was used.

And the screen door according to my sources uh uh one the screen door was propped open with a flower pot.

I was not able to to ascertain whether the back door the the door that goes into the kitchen the wooden door was was propped open with a flower pot.

But a lot of times those doors won’t swing close.

The screen door will swing closed.

But and that makes me wonder if the big wooden door to the kitchen was unlocked but maybe the screen door was locked.

And that’s an easy one to rip a screen and and and jig [ __ ] with the lock.

So maybe that’s the forced entry.

And again, my source could have been wrong in the beginning about uh forced entry, but I’ll tell you what, that source has not been wrong about anything so far.

Everything that was told to me on day three has actually played out.

So I’d be surprised if this one wasn’t if this part of it wasn’t true as well.

Some kind of forced entry on that screen door.

Well, you know, [clears throat] let’s let’s walk through it logically.

Um, to me, if someone was going to prop Why would you prop open the back door? Why would you go through all that trouble in doing that while Nancy’s gone? And why? I mean, if you have access to the house, why would you prop that door open? It makes zero sense to me.

Um, how about an escape route? Meaning, you’re going in there.

Um, I know that the Golden State Killer, this was on our episode last night, uh, Joseph D’Angelo would often leave windows and doors open so that he had a fast egress if he needed it, meaning he he was planning everything and didn’t plan for, oh [ __ ] somebody’s here.

I wasn’t expecting, you know.

Um, and is it possible that that’s why this guy might have propped open the gate and propped open the screen door uh, and made his entry? [clears throat] Yeah, I think yeah, it’s possible.

Absolutely.

Um, but to me, I mean, and Joseph D’Angelo, he was a former cop, right? Yes, he was.

He was a cop when he was killing all these women.

And so, he was extremely meticulous in his ways.

And, you know, I’m not trying to draw a parallel thinking that, you know, this is someone in law enforcement that was involved in this.

Yeah, I think it was a very wellthoughtout operation.

Um, and they obviously worked it for quite some time to where they felt the need to prop open the back door.

Um, I just think that it’s strange.

But that being said, that’s also an area that, you know, was manipulated by by the bad guy.

So, you know, that’s that was an important part of the investigation.

I’m assuming they buckle swabbed it and fingerprinted it and did all that stuff.

Yeah, that’s what I’m hoping because there’s this mixed DNA and I’m assuming that it may have come off of a a door handle or maybe a flower pot or something, you know, because clearly he moved that flower pot into place, both of them, the one for the gate and the one for the the screen door.

But I’m I’m curious if you think that it’s possible it is just one per given that he may have propped those doors open uh to make a fast egress or because he was planning to bring Nancy back out through there and didn’t want to have to do too much on his own, right? And then realized she can’t walk very far.

Savannah said on a good day she could get to the mailbox, but most days she couldn’t.

And then he had to rethink it and realize I think I got to go out the front and maybe get the car in closer.

So I if it was if it was one per I think it would have to go down this way, right? But again, if it was one, why why would you pop the freaking doors open and not just stay in the house, you know? Why would you come to the front and, you know, do the camera stuff? It it just doesn’t make sense.

But let’s just say, you know, okay, it’s one per he’s in the house.

he is able to um bind her somehow that affords her the ability to still you know be somewhat ambulatory.

Um whether you know he tied her hands and you know had her walk out and then at the front door she gave up a little struggle and you know he popped her in the the nose or the head with a gun or something else and you know she you know she started bleeding from the nose or the head.

and that the blood spatter, the pattern that’s there leads me to believe that it’s, you know, from some type of head wound or, you know, a a nose a nose bleed because the there was no directionality on the spatter.

It’s just straight down.

It’s like the individual was standing there and it was sudden and then all of a sudden it was gone.

Um, so if it was a single per, you know, they could have had a struggle at the door where he caused her to bleed and got her out to the car.

He could have wheeled her out in a wheelchair.

You know, he could have tied her to a dolly in the house and, you know, brought I I I don’t know, but it just seems like an awful lot of work for a lone individual to do to be as successful as he was.

Um, or Kurt, is it possible he’s thinking, “I’ve got a gun.

I can do this very easily at gunpoint until he realizes this isn’t as easy as I thought because she cannot walk the way I thought she could walk.

I thought I would get her up out of bed and at gunpoint make her walk to my car and suddenly I realized I’ve got somebody who can’t walk 50 yards.

Um, I got to I got to re rejig this.

” Yeah.

I got to rejig this plan.

So, you know, going along those lines, you know, if she can’t walk, if she’s causing a fuss at the door where it causes him to do something to make her bleed, you know, be be she’s causing a fuss at that threshold.

You know, in law enforcement, we call that a fatal funnel because you don’t want to stand there in front of a closed door because bullets are just going to come through and you can’t see it.

Well, I mean, that was realistically NY’s fatal funnel as well.

She knew once she was outside the safety of her home that all bets were off.

So if she did cause a little struggle there and cause him to make her bleed, you I would think that there would be more signs of a struggle leading out in that gravel driveway.

The my inside sources have told me that from day one, blood [snorts] inside the house.

Okay.

I couldn’t figure out where, [clears throat] but weeks later I was able to find out that the blood pattern that is on the front outside tiles is replicated inside.

And again, I couldn’t find out where until finally I did and it is right inside her door.

So basically her front foyer has the same blood pattern, this the vertical drops as the outdoor front tiled entrance of her home.

So clearly, so yeah, somebody inside it appears that she caused it appears that she caused a struggle right there, right at the door.

And if that is the case and she was still able to move, you would think that there would be drag marks.

You know, she doesn’t want to leave the safety of her house.

You know, maybe she’s got tape around her mouth and she can’t scream, right? She’s still going to be making noises.

dogs, neighbors dogs were barking at the time.

Um, I would just think that you would see more disturbance in the pearavevel driveway because that stuff is easily disturbed by footprints, by drags, by car marks, by I also thought about uh being 84 and if you have an elderly parent, many of us watching will know right now that um usually the skin is very very tissue paper-like, especially if you’re on blood thinners.

So, it might have even been restraints uh that caused, you know, bleeding.

I mean, I know for you could not possibly put my mom in restraints or that would bleed, you know.

Yeah.

No, and that’s totally possible.

Totally possible.

But again, if she was struggling enough for them to make her bleed, to do something to make her bleed, meaning they struck her somehow, um, or even if it was bleeding from handcuffs or some type of binding mechanism, you would I would still think that you would see more of a struggle in the driveway, more of a disturbance going on outside the home.

So, do you have you gamed the system? Have you gamed this in in your head? What you think actually happened? And [snorts] if you have, can you tell me? Many I’ve got many far out theories.

I’ I’ve got theories, you know, that, you know, are very centered.

And I’ve got theories that are on, you know, the far the farthest ring of Saturn, you know, that’s out there.

And it it goes from the sensible to the wild.

But you have to do that, right? As a hind detective, don’t you have to do that? You legitimately have to do that.

Um, I’ve shared a few of them.

you know, I’ll think I think I’ll keep my, you know, out of space ones to myself, but I I think it’s, you know, two to four individuals, maybe three or four, just because of the logistics involved, and that it was a wellplanned out, somewhat well executed um operation by whether or not these individuals had done it before, I don’t know, but They damn sure did their homework on this.

So, if it was a kidnap, I’m assuming it would be for [clears throat] money, right? Why else would you kidnap an 84 year old woman, right? Well, you’re looking up as though maybe not.

Tell me.

Well, I don’t know.

I mean, it’s I thought so originally, right? But what you have to do in not only this case, but every homicide investigation is you have to figure out who benefits.

Somebody benefits from this, whether it’s monetarily, whether it’s revenge, whether it’s just some crazy dude.

I don’t think it’s someone like, you know, that is has a mental deficiency and was infatuated with Nancy.

Um, because she wasn’t a very public person.

She had been on the news with with Savannah.

Um so I don’t think it’s some deranged individual and those deranged individuals that go about doing things these type of you know um Jodie Foster you know victimized you know Ronald Reagan you know those type of things those fixation yeah those are not very meticulous individuals they may be very smart but the way they went about their actions were clouded by passion completely different than this yeah this was a very non-passionate um crime.

Yeah.

If if you will.

Yeah.

Why then? Because I I think that’s a plausible uh theory until I get to you wait three days to give some kind of a ransom request to a national website and two local TV stations.

That part didn’t make any sense because that’s why I still don’t Ray, you know that the ransom business is a [clears throat] serious business and they don’t want anybody involved with noise.

Yep.

100%.

And for them not to leave any contact information to get a hold of them to make their wish come to fruition, um I think that, you know, they were red herrings because if you’re going to kidnap somebody, you’re going to send that ransom right away.

Yeah.

and you’re going to send it to the person.

Now, this has played out extremely publicly, right? You’ve got a well-known um individual that is being forced to play this out in the public.

And that’s why I say, you know, revenge might be one of the the who benefits.

Um, so I’m hoping that the detectives, you know, and the investigators are looking at, you know, all manners of of motives, you know, for this.

And again, motives aren’t needed for a criminal conviction, but they sure do help a hell of a lot during the investigation.

Well, and they also just help answer the question.

And again, look, it would be nice for all of us to know because we’re all, you know, completely bewildered by this.

But first and foremost, the family needs to know what the hell happened to my mom and why.

You know, these are just the most vexing things that I hope one day we’ll solve.

And you you feel good, huh, Kurt? You think that we’ll get those answers? I do.

You know why? Because law enforcement doesn’t stop.

You know, I retired and the cog still keeps going.

these detectives are going to retire and if the case doesn’t get solved right now, technology is going to continue to increase and the case will get solved.

You know, we don’t stop looking just because in the future if this case goes cold, they run through all 40,000 tips.

They’ve looked [clears throat] at all the video.

They’ve done all the interviews and the case goes cold.

Um it doesn’t mean that it gets stopped work on.

We still have a cold case unit.

And those detectives read through these cases all the time.

They look for DNA.

They look for little things that they can do now that they they’re doing stuff now that they couldn’t do four years ago when I was a homicide detective.

So that’s why I think it’s going to be solved.

Well, Kurt Dab, thank you for your service all those years and thank you for this interview.

I really appreciate it.

You’re welcome.

So there you have it.

Uh, super interesting to be able to speak with somebody with so much experience um in in trying to just game out all the possibilities when you have a mystery on your hands.

You got to go down all those roads.

As crazy as they may seem, you got to go down all those roads and then you got to figure out where the evidence matches and where the evidence will take you.

So, my great thanks to Kurt Dab for speaking with us about this.

Um, now as for where things are going, I do have some information.

Uh tomorrow’s episode, we’re going to talk to uh who’s being interviewed because I have found out who’s being interviewed in this investigation.

Super fascinating.

But uh for now, thank you so much for uh staying with me through this episode.

I so appreciate you if you haven’t already subscribed.

Boink boink.

It’s right there.

It’s cute.

It’s the little me with the, you know, the silly little cartoon hair.

Uh, and I really do thank you so much if you have subscribed and I thank you in advance if you’re about to because it does do me a huge solid and it allows the independent journalism to continue.

Uh, I don’t got no boss.

So, this is it and it really just all relies on you and your support.

So, thanks and join as a member and you get all the extra bonus content that we reserve just for the members.

We have lots of fun Q&As’s.

Uh, every couple of weeks I sit down for an hour.

Last last time I think was two hours and we just say ask me anything and I’ll answer whatever you got.

And some of the questions have been really really clever and very interesting and we have some fun too.

Last time there was wine off camera.

Thanks so much everybody for being here.

I so appreciate it.

Um remember this if you don’t remember anything else.

The truth isn’t just serious.

It’s drop deadad serious.

 

« Prev