Hi everybody.

I’m Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Deadad Serious.

Thank you for being here.

Thank you for subscribing.

And if you haven’t yet subscribed, this is it.

The little button.

It’s free.

It’s easy.

It might even go ding when you do it.

And I so appreciate it.

Thank you so much for being here.

thumbnail

Um and also if you’re a member, I really appreciate you guys.

If you want to join, there’s a little join button down there as well.

We’d love to have you.

We do all sorts of special member stuff uh just for the members.

So I’ve got some more reporting for you.

This is day 59, y’all.

And I’m recording this on March 31st.

It is the last day of March, which means tomorrow is day 60 in NY’s uh investigation.

Okay.

So, I learned something from my law enforcement sources that uh so much that I learn makes me so angry.

Uh others I find fascinating.

Like, if you didn’t see yesterday’s episode, check it out.

I finally have learned from my sources where the perpetrator got into NY’s house.

It’s in the middle back door, the door that goes into the kitchen.

And when Savannah said doors propped open uh plural, it meant the screen door and the wooden door of the same entrance.

Um the screen door was propped open with the flower pots and so was the uh the gate to the backyard.

So check out yesterday’s episode if you haven’t already for more details about that.

Today though, I have learned that in the very beginning of this case, right? You know how it’s so important at the beginning of a case, timing is everything.

Like the the your countdown is everything when you have a missing person.

It’s just like the hours count.

In the very beginning of this case, when we learned from the sheriff that homicide had been called in because there was, you know, disturbing things inside the house.

We learned what that is, right? It’s the door back door wide open.

I told you that on day three.

And also blood found in the house.

I told you that on day three.

I also in the last several weeks have learned blood droplets in the front foyer inside NY’s house that go outside her front door and down, you know, the pathway.

We knew about the blood outside.

We also know about the blood inside.

So, the homicide detectives were brought in because of that, right? And now I’m learning that the lead detective assigned to this case to a case that was as high profile as the Nancy Guthrie case was from day two.

And we know it was high-profile because Sheriff Nanos called a news conference.

You don’t call a news conference for any homicide case.

You call a news conference for a highprofile case that you are getting hammered with questions.

The media interest is massive.

So you have to hold a news conference.

And on day two, he held a news conference.

So we know it was a high-profile case.

And who was assigned the spot of lead detective on this highprofile and bewildering case? It was a homicide detective with exactly two years experience in homicide.

Two years under his belt and he’s given lead detective on Nancy Guthri’s case.

So my reaction to that is what? What the actual [ __ ] Are you kidding me? A guy with two years experience in homicide gets lead gets pole position on the Nancy Guthrie case that we have known since day one was a big deal and since day two was so big there needed to be a news conference.

Yeah.

That’s what’s happened.

My law enforcement sources have told me that’s what happened.

Not one, but multiple law enforcement sources have now told me, “Yeah.

” Yeah.

Basically, the guy with two years under his belt as a as a homicide detective got the case.

So, now you’re going to say, “Well, Ashley, maybe things changed as they realized this this case was really difficult.

” And, you know, as days went on, it g it got even more frustrating and difficult.

They thought they’d solve it really quickly and that wasn’t happening.

So, they moved him off and they brought somebody in and with more experience and that did not happen according to my sources.

That did not happen.

In fact, what my sources have told me was that this fella, and I’m sure he’s perfectly lovely and he may be a very good police officer, right? And he’s got experience as a, you know, as a as an officer beforehand.

just as a detective, as a homicide detective.

Two years.

Um, and that’s not to say that he isn’t great.

I don’t know that he could be fantastic.

But I also know in everybody’s business that experience drives success and product, right? All of that.

Experience is at the apex of what you need to do the right job, to do a great job.

And he didn’t have the experience.

Uh, and yet he stayed on as lead detective all the way up until I’m told the task force was created.

So I went back in my notes and I con, you know, I I consulted the trustee Brian Enton and all of his shows as well.

And Brian Anton reported on March 4th, which is day 33.

Let me read you what Brian said.

As part of the refocusing of resources, we have learned four detectives and a sergeant from the Pima County Sheriff’s Office have been assigned to a task force with the FBI to continue investigating Nancy Guthri’s disappearance.

The task force will be stationed at the FBI office in Tucson.

This is a change from virtually all detectives working on the case.

End quote.

That’s Brian Entrance reporting on day 33, March 4th.

Now, I don’t know if the task force was created that day that Brian found that information out or the day before or maybe a few days before, whatever it is, around day 33, we got a task force, which means that for roughly a month, if my law enforcement sources are correct, and they have been all along, um, you had a two-year rookie at the helm of the Nancy Guthrie homicide case.

I don’t know about that.

I mean that makes me very uneasy, you know.

I remember me at two years experience.

I wasn’t ready for [ __ ] you know? I was ready to like do some filing and uh get people coffee and maybe occasionally be sent out to do a story and have it double triple checked by the bosses, but I was in no position to be telling other people what to do in my business.

I didn’t know enough about my business.

I could have studied it and learned it and been on the job and all the rest, but I still didn’t know squat.

I still feel at year 38 that I have lots to learn, you know, but this lead detective on the case had two years.

That’s what I call a complete rookie.

Why? I I ask, why would that suffice? There’s all sorts of reasons why people get assigned.

And and I’m I don’t work, you know, in in a homicide uh unit.

Um, you know, draw straws as a number system.

Uh, you know, just round robin, you get when your numbers up, you get the case.

But, but when you get a case that defies all the others, that’s an outlier that’s different, especially like this one.

This one I think we could safely say is up there with the Gabby Patitos and the Idaho, you know, massacre at 1122 King Road.

You know, that these are big cases.

And I’m just surprised that it would stand that the two-year rookie would keep it for somewhere around 33 days till the task force was created.

Um, so I called up a guy who I have watched do interviews, talked to Brian Enton.

He seemed like the perfect guest for this.

His name is Kurt Dab.

Okay, he’s a retired Puma County Sheriff’s Deputy from, you guessed it, from the homicide division.

He was a homicide detective for seven years.

And if there were anyone who would know a thing or two about rookie homicide detectives in Puma County, it’s Kurt.

Because I remember very well when Brian Enton asked Kurt Dab a few questions about the unit, about the sheriff’s deputies who are working in homicide.

This is all within the first couple weeks of the case.

He said the average experience level of most of those homicide cops in Pum County right now is two to three years.

And the words he used were that’s baby cops.

That’s baby cops.

Right.

And so I called Kurt um to ask him about this this this scoop that I got that this lead detective had only two years experience in in in the homicide.

And uh he told me a lot like he had a lot to say about that and how you know that ripples out into everything else with regard to this case.

And then I asked him a few other things because given the fact that, you know, he’s done his time, you know, he’s retired now.

Um, what did he think about the scoop that we had yesterday about the flower pots, NY’s flower pots being used to prop open that back screen door leading into the kitchen door into the the kitchen.

That’s if you’re looking at the house, that’s the back of the house.

It’s the middle door just to the left of the patio, the far left hand side of that patio where the couch is.

It’s not the door way over on the left, the pretty bluish gray door.

It’s not the door over on the right under the patio awning that’s also bluish gray to the right of the couch.

It’s actually a a door that’s that’s that’s perpendicular and vertical to your vision.

You can’t see it.

It’s why we had such trouble finding it at first.

Um, but that’s the door that was used to gain access into NY’s home.

And the reason Savannah Guthrie said back doors plural propped open uh was because those are two doors to the same entrance.

It’s a screen door and then the kitchen door.

So those doors plural at that one entrance were the only entrance that was wide open.

Yeah.

And then the flower pots I learned since were what were used to prop that door open at the screen door and then to prop open the back gate.

This son of a [ __ ] propped open the back gate with NY’s flower pots.

He should have kept his filthy [ __ ] fingers off her beautiful flower pots and her and her life.

Keep your [ __ ] fingers away from NY’s life.

It’s too late for that.

In any case, I asked Kurt about theories now knowing that he props open the entrance in egress and yet takes her out the front door.

And we know that because of the blood evidence, the drips, right? Goes out to the driveway, stops at the driveway where presumably she’s loaded into a vehicle.

And he’s got some things to say about that, too, with the experience that he has as a homicide detective.

First, a quick note from my sponsor.

If you travel at all or if you’ve ever landed somewhere and then immediately started uh stressing out about the Wi-Fi, the roaming charges or swapping out SIM cards, this is for you.

SY, it is an eSIM app that gives you instant mobile data in over 200 destinations so that you can get connected fast without insane roaming fees.

You just download the app, choose a plan, and activate it right from your phone.

It’s simple, it’s convenient, and it makes traveling so much easier.

Get an exclusive 15% discount, too, on sale data plans.

Just use my code drop deadad at checkout.

Download the SY app or go to site.

com/drop deadad or just, you know, use the link down below.

And to that point, um, my colleague Brian Enton has some reporting today that matches our reporting from my law enforcement sources.

And that is and I think it was only I think Friday maybe I did this episode or Saturday that inside NY’s home.

It was just devoid of evidence of a crime.

It looked as though there was no crime that had been committed except for the blood in that front entrance and the man on the video.

It would have looked like she just got up out of bed and walked out of the house.

That was my reporting from Friday of last week that it just didn’t look like a crime had been committed in there, right? other than the blood drops in her front foyer going over her front door and out the front entrance, the tile work and then down the the walkway to the driveway and that harrowing image of the ski mask clad man on video.

But for those things, it just did not look like a crime had been committed.

And that’s what Brian Anton is is learning as well from his sources that the house was immaculate.

you know, so little by little, all the stuff that my law enforcement sources have been telling me since day three, uh, it is all bearing out, every piece of it, and multiple sources have come in since then and doubled up on that being true.

So, here is my conversation about this rookie cop, this rookie homicide detective, uh, being placed at the helm of the Nancy Guthrie investigation from the beginning and staying there for the better part of a month.

So, Kurt, what do you think about this um this this information that I’ve received that the the lead detective assigned to the Nancy Guthrie case right off the bat had just two years under his belt.

He was a newbie.

Um well, it’s a middle little misleading.

He had two years under his belt as a detective and that is that’s a problem.

Um especially when you’re investigating homicides.

Um, I think the detective in question probably has six or seven years on right now, but at the time of the case, suffice to say, he had about two years experience as a detective, not as a homicide detective.

Does that matter to the lay person? Like I I hear that and I think, “Oh my god, he’s a kid.

” Um, but is that kind of standard? Is that just sort of the way it works? Well, usually uh in the sheriff’s department and all I can do is speak on, you know, the 20 years that I was there.

Um [clears throat] at about year three when I was working, I showed interest in the homicide unit.

I spoke with the homicide sergeant said, “I really want to get into this unit.

” Um you know, this is a unit books and movies are made of, right? And uh he’s like, “You got to you got to earn your stripes, man.

” So I, you know, busted my butt.

The normal progression, if you will, is you bust your butt patrol and you go into be a detective.

Usually, it’s um burglaries or nonviolent criminal offenses like garden hose theft, bicycle theft, those things, general investigations.

You earn your stripes there for, you know, a year or two um or a little bit more and then you normally can progress to the violent crime side of the house.

We’re talking um domestic violence, we’re talking uh armed robberies, we’re talking kidnappings, homicides, those things like that.

Um violent assaults.

And then if you know, one has a proclivity towards you know investigating you know the ultimate violent crime you know they would um test to be in the homicide unit.

It’s my understanding that’s the progression that, you know, I went through and I’m guessing, you know, most of the other homicide detectives prior to me.

Um, it’s my understanding now that I know there’s one individual that’s in the homicide unit that definitely wanted to be there.

Um, she’s been there for a few years.

Um, she had a little bit of experience under her belt, but not a lot of homicide experience.

Um, a couple of the other individuals that are in the unit, um, it’s my understanding, um, heard through the grape vine that, you know, these are individuals that are great cops, very good detectives, very apt, very knowledgeable, but homicide is not their thing.

And so when you know, these are the people on the task force now, is that the people you’re talking about now who are involved directly with the Guthrie case? Um it would be individuals that are in the homicide unit that current individuals that are in the homicide unit.

Yeah.

Because as I understand it, they have now moved on.

The whoever is working in homicide is now working with the regular course of business.

But this the specified uh I think five or so um are in on the task force and that this original [clears throat] guy who is a two-year veteran um he’s no longer with that that uh case.

He didn’t move on to the task force.

it was reassigned to somebody else who’s got about 10 years or so.

Okay.

Um well, to me that makes sense.

And to me, it would have made a lot of sense early in the investigation to bring back former homicide detectives that are still working in the sheriff’s department, albeit in different assignments now, um to bring them in to help with the case, knowing full well that the homicide unit was lacking severely in experience investigating homicides.

Um, so I was a little bit dismayed um, out front.

And you know, look, you have plenty of homicide detectives that are retired.

Um, you know, that could be deputized to come back and help with the case.

Um, not saying that I would do that, but you know, there are that is an option and none of those options, as far as I’m aware, you know, were taken.

It it sort of defies logic, especially because right from the get-go, you have a case on day two, right, which would be Monday, February 2nd, that the sheriff deems important enough, highprofile enough, vexing enough to hold a news conference to update the public saying, “This is not a woman who just wandered off on her own.

She’s sharp as attack.

There’s some evidence inside the home that leads us to bring in the homicide division.

” and he’s having a press conference.

For those reasons, it stands out above the other homicide cases that come in.

This one’s special.

It’s bigger.

It’s more odd.

It’s a and it’s high-profile.

So, why then would have it would have it been assigned to somebody with only two years as a homicide detective? Well, that’s a question that, you know, the sheriff would have to answer or the one of the chiefs or the captain or lieutenant that are in charge of the homicide division.

Um, to me it doesn’t make any sense.

And look, when I was working homicides, I did seven years with the homicide department or homicide unit at the sheriff’s department.

Two separate times, one for three years, one for four.

When I was working, we would average anywhere between 12 to 20 homicides a year.

And that was about half of what the Tucson Police Department would get, which is the city within Puma County.

So the county we would investigate 12 to 20 a year.

This was during the 2009 10 11 12 time frame.

My first time when Tucson was extremely violent.

We were having home invasions, drug rips, kidnappings, all kinds of crazy stuff.

Um moving on to now, it seems that there’s less violent crime in the county, which is great for us citizens.

Um, but it’s not so good for the homicide unit because they’re not investigating the amount of homicides that my team investigated when I was there.

And I am by no stretch of the imagination saying that, you know, investigating 12 to 20 homicides, you know, a year, which I did, you know, is some grand thing when you have New York City, Chicago, Detroit, LA, those, you know, units where they’re investigating, you know, 50 to 100 a year.

Yeah.

It isn’t nothing.

Correct.

It’s not nothing.

So, yes, it it’s a problem to me.

It’s a concern to me that especially one of the and I and I don’t know where I heard this from, but I did hear it that that individual didn’t even want to be a homicide detective.

You know, that maybe he or one of the other detective, this lead detective, the one with the two years experience, did not even want to be a detective.

Didn’t even want to.

And so, not didn’t want to be a homicide detective.

See, you know, like I explained earlier, there’s a calling to do homicides.

Not everybody wants to get into the weeds in investigating homicides.

They’re very violent.

They’re very disgusting to look at.

You truly do see the true pure evil of mankind.

And you know, it can cause problems with individuals later on in life.

mental health issues, stuff like that, PTSD.

So although homicide is a is, you know, the top of the tops as far as, you know, in my opinion, investigating crimes, it’s something that you have to be called to because if you’re not going to go into it 100% and not dip your toes in a pool, jump both feet, you know, first, then it’s not going to be something that that you’re going to be good at because you’re not going put a whole 100% effort mentally because it’s not it’s not your thing.

You’re going to do the job.

You’re going to do it to standard, but you’re not going to you just don’t have that the the feel, the heart, the passion.

Yeah.

The passion.

So, look, I I I I don’t know [clears throat] how that unit operates.

I sometimes think every unit is like a a you know a sports team and you know [clears throat] deciding to hand the ball off when the buzzer’s on its way to Rudy it would dishearten a lot of people you know on that team.

Do you know if that happened in this particular case where they have this highprofile, very visible press conference earning murder case or homicide case potentially.

We don’t know, but they got the homicide guys in uh to the to the young guy.

Well, you know, it’s uh [sighs] you have you have to have that passion.

You have to have that that attitude.

Like I worked the Gabby Gford’s case.

Um I was in homicide.

I spent an entire nearly an entire week at that Safeway parking lot um as a leazison with the FBI.

Um but every all well I think there might have been four of us in in the homicide unit at that time.

Um all of us were chomping at the bit wanting that case, right? Because we do that on every case because it’s a homicide.

It’s what we wanted to do.

I don’t know if that was the case with this one.

Um, and I’m not saying I do know and I’m just not saying I’m not telling you.

I I legit don’t know what the feelings were when this call came out and let me just get clarity up.

You don’t know if the rest of the guys um thought, “What the hell? Why why is this guy going to lead this extraordinary?” I mean, this is like going to the show, you know? Yeah.

I I I I don’t know what uh what anybody thought.

Um and again, this individual is not a a bad cop by any stretch of the imagination.

And I don’t want to malign this person either.

Let’s let’s be really clear because if anybody’s viewing right now and thinking, Ashley, come on.

Give it a rest.

I’m only saying that I know what I was like as a Cub reporter and I was not ready for prime time.

Let’s just put it that way.

And I didn’t necessarily get prime time back then, right? You know, and I think that I think You’re saying that right there.

I I wasn’t ready.

I knew I wasn’t ready.

I felt I I didn’t think I was ready.

Um I had that same conversation before I went to homicide.

I spoke to one of my future homicide sergeants, Sergeant Jill Eley, one of the best homicide detectives the sheriff’s department has had as far as I’m concerned, you know.

And I told her, I’m like, you know, I don’t have the experience to go into homicide, but I really want to.

So, I’m trying.

She’s like, “Kirk, it’s the same job that everybody else does.

It’s the same search warrants.

You’re just using different words.

It’s the same search techniques.

You’re just using more tools.

” Um, so it’s not that big of a deal, but for some people, you know, it can be a deal breaker because they don’t think that they can live up to the expectations.

When I was at the homicide unit, and I’m sure you’ve spoken to many, many homicide detectives, the homicide unit is usually the best looked at as the best detectives on the department.

Um, and I don’t know if that’s the way it’s looked at at the sheriff’s department here in Pima County anymore, which is sad because of this case.

Um, no.

I think that it’s just the I think it’s a generational thing.

You know, we have a lot of young kids that are becoming cops these days.

Look, when I applied, there were 3,500 4,000 people applying for 10 spots.

Now, you’re lucky if they get 300 people applying for 40 spots that they’re trying to fill in an academy.

So, when I took this profession, I did it as or this job.

I looked at it as a profession.

I was going to do this till a I either died because that’s just the mentality that I had or I was going to retire.

Kids these days are coming in to police work under a very very giant microscope that you know and I’m talking about public perception.

I’m talking about command staff perception um legal perception and they are feeling like No one has their back, right? Command staff’s against the wall because they’re getting bitched at by the public about this and a deputy goes out and does something, uses force, and they feel that.

Yeah.

So, it’s uh it it’s just it’s just a crazy situation to have people in a unit that, you know, is highly regarded in every agency worldwide.

every AY’s homicide unit is looked upon that way.

And to have, you know, young deputies in there that don’t want to do this as a profession, it in my mind prevents them from becoming as passionate as I did because I it was my chosen profession.

So, you’re having these young kids come in for two or three years.

they’re getting their kicks, you know, their car chases, foot chases, fights, shootings, you know, the whole gamut.

And then they realize, you know, they’re like, well, this is really not the position for me to to live a healthy life.

So, I’m just going to go sit behind a computer and make six figures.

Whereas, you’re not going to make six figures as a cop.

So, we’re getting a lot of turn you’re getting a lot of turnover.

And this is nationwide, you know.

I I’m sort of getting the idea that it’s uh it’s sort of a demoralized atmosphere in the Puma County uh sheriff’s homicide unit.

And I I wonder in the whole department, not just the unit.

In the whole department.

Yeah.

And so do do you think that infected um the team, you know, the homicide detectives in a way that might have actually had an effect on the investigation, the Nancy Guthrie investigation? I wouldn’t go I wouldn’t go that far.

I mean, homicide detectives, cops are used to working under pressure.

So, I don’t think that there’s anything that command staff or the sheriff, you know, has done um that is insurmountable in court.

And, you know, I I’m saying that because investigating, you know, as many cases have I as I’ve investigated, whether normal investigations or regular investigations, mistakes are going to be made.

But as long as those mistakes are rectified within a reasonable amount of time and you’re able to articulate um why you know it was done inappropriately the first time or wasn’t done you know the first time.

Um they’re not insurmountable whether or not the detectives had the autonomy to make decisions on their own.

um is another, you know, question that I don’t have the answer to.

But again, because they were so experienced, you know, I was giving the command staff, you know, a difficult time because I had heard and I believed, you know, that they were meddling in the investigation, sort of, you know, quote unquote running it.

And I don’t know that to be true.

Um, but if you have an inexperienced homicide unit, I think that would make some sense.

But the more sense, like I said earlier, is just bring the guys and girls back with the experience, let them join the team and help.

So, Kurt, do you think it’s possible that um, you know, we keep hearing that things are are not are not progressing? I mean, I I’ll give you the the actual quote that um I learned from my sources that one of the uh investigators literally said the words, “We ain’t got shit.

” Uh that sounds pretty stalled to me.

It’s now, you know, day 59 as I record this on March 31st, and you know, from all indications, it seems like things have really stalled.

My inside sources, the actual words that were used were, “We ain’t got shit.

” Um, a lot of other journalists have said their sources have said the same thing that things are really, really stalled.

I know there’s still thousands of tips they have to go through, but do you think it’s possible that the momentum is really slowed maybe because of the inexperience early on in this case? Well, there’s a word that’s key to this and it’s called compartmentalization.

Okay.

When you’re investigating a homicide and especially a high-profile case like this, um the detectives, they’re they’re not going to they’re not going to say anything.

They’re not going to tell their buddies on a department, you know, what they’re working.

And everybody wants to know, you know, everyone wants to know about homicides, you know, what’s going on.

Doesn’t matter if it’s this one or another one.

People just want to know.

So, yes, on the outside it looks like nothing’s going on.

it looks like it’s a quote unquote cold case and you know we just half guys are just sitting back and waiting and that’s far from the truth.

Um unless that information that you got was from one of the actual investigators, you know, on the task force.

Um I I would take it with a grain of salt.

um especially if what you’re saying is true about them sending you know a detective with 10 years of homicide experience to work on the task force.

So again the lack of experience initially in from my point of view caused some issues but they’re not insurmountable.

So they’ll be able to get them worked out.

And just because the sheriff’s department’s not, you know, putting out press commun communications daily, you know, keeping everybody updated, doesn’t mean that that task force of those FBI agents and experienced homicide detectives, you know, are just sitting in the office twiddling their thumbs.

Um, but do you think the valuable time might have been lost? like, you know, if you got your top guys on the case right from day one, you know, this guy’s not getting far or at least valuable information isn’t dissipating or disappearing or being lost completely.

That I guess that’s my point.

If you if it was if it was Top Guys right off the bat, did we potentially lose some some really valuable investigative um product? Yeah, absolutely.

Um time.

we lost time and with that time came possible leads and information.

So yeah, but again I don’t think it’s something that can’t be overcome once once it goes to trial.

I fully believe I mean if it goes to trial, but I fully believe that they’re going to get to the bottom of this.

It’s just going to take some time.

I love that you say that.

I love that you were so optimistic that you’re even thinking about trial.

So often in this case, I’m not even going there.

And I always go there.

I always go, oh, protect the scene, protect the evidence, protect the chain of custody.

I always go there as a true crime reporter.

But in this particular case, I haven’t even felt the luxury of that.

I have only felt, are they ever just going to find her, let alone the guy? Mhm.

Well, you know, there’s so many there’s so much information that comes in and it’s a roller coaster for an investigator.

Like I guarantee you those that first SWAT operation that they did down in Rio Rico, Arizona.

Um, I’m assuming based on how it played out that they obtained a search warrant for this individual, located him, detained him, questioned him, photographed him, fingerprinted him, and got DNA swabs from him.

That’s what that thing was for.

But I can tell you, those homicide investigators, their adrenaline was through the roof when they’re writing the search warrant.

You know what I mean? When they’re getting everybody up and they’re briefing them.

All right, this is what we’re going.

So those type of things happen all the time.

Some of those things might hap it might happen multiple times a day where you’re reading through something or you’re sitting there watching hours and hours and hours of video and you see something and you don’t know when that’s going to happen.

Um, I’m assuming because I’ve investigated cases before that that has happened a number of times um, even in the past couple of weeks where they thought that they’re on to something or think that they’re on to something and you know they’re working on it.

So, it does suck from the sleuths, the civilian sleuths.

It sucks true crime reporters.

It sucks for us citizens.

And it definitely sucks for us retired cops because um I would like to say my team that I was with, you know, we would have done a much better job um investigating this, but you know, maybe that’s just my ego.

[laughter] And it also sucks for for Savannah Guthrie and her family who are just in absolute agony.

I mean, I see that interview and I think God, not one of us could imagine being in in her shoes.

And in a way, I’m glad that people are seeing that because what Savannah’s going through is what so many victims of crime go through anonymously.

They don’t have a camera or an audience to share just how painful it is to be on the receiving end of of crime like this.

And so, it’s good for people to understand like this is the stakes are just they they don’t get higher um than the than the loss and the mystery of where your loved one is.

I I am interested in in you talking about this deputizing.

I hadn’t even thought of that.

I didn’t even realize that that’s completely within the arsenal.

You you find yourself all of a sudden with a massive high-profile case.

At one point, there were 400 people working on it.

And yet, you don’t know that that they weren’t going back and grabbing the the old vets and saying, “Come on, we need you to do some pinch hitting.

” Yeah.

I never got a call.

And you know, I neither of my other buddies that were retired homicide, even the ones that are still working, you know, got a call.

And many of them would have they would have jumped in and said, “I I’m put me in, coach.

” Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

We We have a separate cold case unit that wasn’t even allowed to help investigate.

And the cold case unit is plum full of experienced homicide detectives.

No, you know, they went out and did menial tasks, you know, here and there, but to get, you know, roll up their sleeves and, you know, get dirty, that wasn’t an option.

And I know a lot of people get it wrong when they say, “Is the case has the case gone cold?” A cold case literally, and I’ll repeat this as many times as I have to for any newbies who are watching now and getting into true crime.

Most of the people watching know this, but a case doesn’t go cold until the very last lead has been exhausted.

there are no more leads coming in and there’s literally no investigative work for the detectives to to to pursue.

Then they put it on a shelf and they wait for more to come in.

We’re not there.

There are thousands and thousands of leads they still have to go through clearly with 40,000 plus coming in.

But there’s a cold case unit that should have been on this and and they weren’t.

Um yeah, we have a cold case unit.

So when I was in homicide, we had cold case unit and a homicide unit.

And whenever we went the homicide unit got called out, we would call out the code case unit because they had experienced homicide detectives and they would help us, you know, process the scene, um, conduct interviews usually, you know, within 24 within 48 hours, you know, their major tasks were done and, you know, they’re able to go back and investigate the cold cases, which is extremely important.

Um, but I think in this one it would have been more apppropo to just let those we’re going to have to put cold cases on the the back burner for a while.

Um, they’re cold and uh utilize the experience that the sheriff has at the agency.

Um, that would have been the smart thing to do in my opinion.

But to to your knowledge, they’re still not being used.

[clears throat] Correct.

Now again, I don’t know.

I I do not know what detectives are assigned to the task force.

Um I heard I don’t know if I heard it earlier in this interview or earlier today.

I don’t know if it was you that mentioned or someone else, but you know, someone with 10 years experience, you know, is you know on that assigned to that task force.

That was one of my law enforcement sources told me that that that someone who’s now uh who should have likely been from the beginning and was there and you know the whole idea is that these these guys existed.

They’re they’re there in the department.

They were just working on other cases.

And that’s a good question for you.

I mean, since you were there, uh, isn’t it doable to switch somebody off one of the cases he or she might be working on, somebody with a lot of experience, and put them on this big high-profile mystery? Well, that’s usually the way that it worked.

And I believe that’s the way that it worked.

Initially, they had, you know, every detective working this case.

But when you have detectives working a case initially, the only ones that are really in the know are the three or four homicide detectives that are in the unit and they’re going to give a briefing and they’re going to start delegating they or the sergeant is going to start delegating tasks to the other deputies and detectives.

So that’s what their job was to go out and do these ancillary tasks versus getting down, doing interviews, you know, searching the scene, going to the scene and putting eyes on, getting a feel for things, getting a sense for things.

Um, and to my understanding, that did not happen and still hasn’t happened with the exception of whoever they sent over to the task force if it wasn’t the actual homicide detectives.

So, I mean, again, I just keep coming back to that the lay person here says, “Wait, if you’re a lead on a case, you should be the most experienced because you’re effectively directing the way the team’s going to operate.

” Is that the way it works? Is the lead detective on the case the one that sets the tone and then sets the mission in place or is it different? Well, you can’t have the [clears throat] most experienced detective investigate, be the lead on every homicide.

So, the way we used to do it at the sheriff’s department is we use a number system and we would just number our homicides and we would have our names on the on a list and whoever had the first homicide, the next name on the list had the next one and then the next one and so on and so forth and it would just revolve.

Um, I don’t know how they do things now, but I I mean, if I was making this, look, if I was in the homicide unit and I had an inexperienced group with me, you best believe I would have stepped forward and said, “I’m taking this case, right? That’s what experienced guys do.

” um whether or not that was well I I’m fairly certain that that wasn’t the the case with this investigation.

Well, let me ask you this.

I mean, I don’t know if they’re using a number system still there or how they effectively ended up giving the this two-year uh homicide detective effective rookie uh the lead on this case.

Isn’t that something that the sheriff could circumvent and say, “Hey, you know what? This one’s special.

This is different.

This is in the public eye.

It is more mysterious maybe than the average, you know, case.

I’m reassigning this to somebody who’s got a lot more under his or her belt.

Well, I think that would be for Sheriff Nanos to do because of his huge ego and his micromanagerial style of leadership.

But you also got to look at the flip side of that coin too where you know someone could tell him one of his chiefs or captains or lieutenants or sergeant tell him that that’s that this you know is too big of a case for someone with this much experience and you know he may have just said no that you think what would be the reason what would be the reason to say no because Nanos makes the calls at the sheriff department.

And I’m not saying that that happened.

Those are just the two options.

Well, he’s got a big ego.

He doesn’t care.

But but what isn’t the big ego fueled by the better guy solving the case rather than let’s have a a younger rookie? Uh there’s no upside for him to keep the younger rookie in place, is there? Well, I mean, if you have an ego as as such to where you don’t care about the outcome, just that you are making the calls and then you can place the blame, you know, push the blame down the line later on.

Um, but again, I I don’t know what one of those scenarios occurred, how that detective got selected to be the the lead on this investigation, whether it was a simple, hey, you’re up.

You’re you were on deck and now you’re up to bat or was it someone else, you know, placing him there? I don’t just seems like it, you know, whatever systems are in place, everybody should be flexible when, you know, I I always use this expression, others use the expression, everybody has a plan until you get hit in the face.

It’s Mike Tyson’s favorite line, you know.

Uh and the plan maybe needed some re reworking.

It’s just my my lay person’s opinion though.

But um so question for you.

So let’s just say the the young guy, he gets the case.

Does he have the support of the rest of the homicide detectives propping, you know, him up in in where he may be inexperienced and not know how to direct things? Would the other members of that um of that unit be there to make sure that nothing falls through the cracks? Well, you have to look at the totality of the experience of the other members of the homicide unit.

[clears throat] I don’t know how many they have, whether it’s four, five, or six.

Um, like I said, when I was working, you know, there was a point where we had three homicide detectives and we were getting slammed with cases and, you know, we’re begging, we need more bodies.

And at one point we got up to six, which was awesome because, you know, we each average, you know, one case every two months and, you know, that that that’s doable.

Um, but the experience of the homicide unit members right now, they don’t have a lot of street experience.

You know, they may have five, six, seven years on as a cop, but they all have two or three years in investigations and two, three years in homicide.

Um, and investigating the amount of homicides that they’re investigating, they’re not getting a lot of experience.

So, I don’t know if anyone in that unit felt [clears throat] confident andor competent enough to stand up and say, “Hey, you know, this is a big deal.

Let let me take this.

” Well, I don’t want to say blind leading the blind.

Um, because some of those people might have been really really good at their jobs.

Even as as you know, young and new on the job, they might have been good.

But that does it is distressing to hear that.

I think I remember Kurt an interview that you did with my colleague Brian Enton probably a month and a half back where you said yeah two to three years average experience for homicide cops in Puma County that’s baby cops.

Mhm.

Yeah.

I mean baby cops is scary.

Well and that’s that’s nationwide.

I mean, we we don’t even have baby cops as far as investigative experience in homicide, but we have baby cops on the street.

The Pima County Sheriff’s Department has 196 deputies, patrol deputies.

101 of them have not even completed their one-year probation yet.

Wait.

So that means So that means that you have 95 deputies on the street that have more than one year on their own.

Holy c.

Then that’s really And you have 101 that haven’t even finished a year on their own.

101 out of 196.

Wow.

Half.

Half.

Yeah.

More than half.

[laughter] And so the the experience the experience thing is just kneedeep in my former agency and agencies throughout the country for the reasons that I explained earlier.

Quick note from my sponsor.

You think all those natural products that you’re buying from the wholesome mom and pop companies are really natural? Not quite.

Many of them have been bought out by mega corporations and private equity firms who hijack the brands and then they load them up with corporate slop.

But there is one company doing things very differently.

The Van Man Company.

They started the grass-fed tallow trend a few years back with moisturizers and they have been crushing it ever since with their nearly edible products.

Tallow works because its fatty acids are nearly identical to the oils in your own skin.

So your body actually recognizes it.

It can replace your lotion, your night cream, your wrinkle cream, even Neosporin and diaper balm.

And it’s powerful enough to heal your skin, yet safe enough to be spread on your toast.

You know, real ingredients.

Ready to ditch the corporate chemicals? Just go to vanman.

shop/banfield and use my code banfield to get 15% off your first order.

That’s vanman.

shop.

shop/banfield and use my code banfield for 15% off your first order.

Or you can just click the link in the description.

Van man, real ingredients, no exceptions.

Cool name.

It’s distressing.

I mean, let me ask you this.

Um, it’s a bit of a right turn, but I’m still really curious because you mentioned uh there you are watching hours and hours of video and it it led me to remember that there are thousands of hours of video that had been solicited and likely come in to the sheriff’s department.

Do you think it’s still going on? Do you think it’s still uh a circumstance where deputies are or detectives are watching video after video looking for anything that might be a lead in this case? Or do you think we’re past that at day, you know, 59? Uh with [clears throat] the amount of hours of footage that they alle allegedly got in, I think that it’s quite possible that they’re still looking.

Um, I sat, excuse me, for one day straight, one case looking at video, just looking for cars going down a dirt road and it’s meticulous.

It’s you can miss things because you’re getting tired looking at the screen.

So, yeah, I think they’re still viewing footage.

Um, and I think that they’re still following up on different leads and different um, forensic examinations, you know, that they’re that they’re thinking of and that have come in.

And that leads me to a question about experience because as you said, and I know video, this is my world now, right? And I also remember being um a young associate producer and I realized very quickly how much focus you actually have to employ watching video because you can miss anything at any time.

And so do you think the experience piece that we’ve been talking about is critical in the amount of video hours that have had to be watched, meaning not very experienced eyes are on those video projects.

Well, I don’t know.

I mean [clears throat] that’s possible but you know I I you got to think that most of these you know young cops these days grew up in the video you know technology video games technology and so staring at screens you know may not for you and I yeah you know I I’m in my mid50s and yeah it sucks staring at the screen for hours and hours and hours but you know maybe for this younger generation it’s it’s not so bad I don’t know.

Yeah let’s hope let’s I never thought of that.

That’s like there’s a little bit of optimism you’ve given me.

I appreciate that.

Um, talk to me about the Let me just actually look because I’ve been I’ve been all over the map with this interview and I don’t want to miss some of the stuff that I’d uh that I’d lined up to talk to you.

I went way way out of uh way out of my uh plan.

Um Oh, I’d love to ask you about something Sheriff Nanos said recently within the last week or so uh maybe 10 days.

Um, he said, and I’m paraphrasing here, but effectively he said, “I know why he was here,” meaning the suspect.

And I’ve known since day one, I cannot get my head around that because to my knowledge, nobody knows why that guy was there or what his intention was um in in targeting Nancy Guthrie.

And it feels like day one is very different than day 59 in the way the sheriff has, you know, directed this investigation.

What are your thoughts? Right.

Well, I mean, the sheriff doesn’t like to be held accountable for things that he says.

He, you know, he said that in his second news conference.

Um, it it could have easily been something like he said his theory or, you know, hypothesis about, you know, what happened out loud.

Um, I think everybody had an opinion about what happened as soon as we saw the video.

Um, I don’t know how soon he saw the video before he made that statement.

Um, but I think after seeing that video, I initially said, “Oh, I I know why this guy’s here.

He’s here to kidnap her.

He’s not there to burglarize a house.

He’s got a backpack full.

” Burglars don’t go burglarize houses with full backpacks.

So, this guy was here to kidnap that.

I believe his kidnapped stuff was in his backpack.

And maybe the sheriff was thinking that as well.

And you can tell he’s not too savvy behind the microphone, right? Um, I think I’m more capable of conducting interviews and answering questions than he is because I’ve had a lot of court experience, a lot of testifying experience.

So maybe it was just something simple for him, you know, as simple as, you know, he just let his thoughts come out of his mouth.

Continue reading….
Next »