It’s that you’re saying it very clearly and there’s still, you know, so I we have this kind of I get angry with him at this bus stop and other people are witnessing this and me yelling at him telling him I’ve asked you to leave me alone so many times.

I don’t know why you’d show up to my work with flowers.

I don’t know what makes you think, you know, I have any any interest in talking with you.

I’ve blocked you.

I’ve asked you to leave me alone.

you know, there’s people like looking at us and I feel like I’m embarrassed because I feel like I’m making a scene, but I’m like maybe he’ll listen to me if I yell.

Like I don’t I’m like I don’t really know what else.

But to me, that was really where things started shifting.

And it was he clearly knows what I’m saying and is defying it and just keeps finding other ways to try to see me or give me things or that was really the first time it became something more than just, oh, this person doesn’t really get it.

And you know I I assumed if I asked someone to leave me alone that they will.

And so that was really the first time after strongly asking him to leave me alone like very bluntly that he came back and still found me somewhere.

>> At this stage did you what did you know about Christopher? like other than what you’d sort of seen of him whilst you’re at college together, like did you know anything about him beyond that like his past or his family life? Like what did you know about him at that stage? >> I didn’t know a lot.

I mean, I knew he was like an older student.

He the one thing I that I knew about him that he told me kind of once in confidence.

He was really said he was really struggling with anger at one point and you know confessed he had been in some bar fight or something when he was younger and that he just got mad at this person and tried to beat them up and you know spent the night in jail or something.

And so, you know, I’m thinking, okay, this person also maybe has impulse and anger issues and that this is something I should also be careful with him about because if he, you know, he’s stronger than I am, for sure he’s bigger than me.

You know, if he were to get angry, there’s, you know, aside from somebody else stepping in, you know, he could potentially hurt me.

I never thought he would.

Um, but in the back of my mind, that was like the one piece of info I kind of had about him was that, you know, he had been in this bar fight at one point and the police got involved.

Um, I didn’t know anything about any prior stalking or, you know, other issues.

He had a couple friends, like long-standing friends that seemed like pretty normal people and was like, I don’t like there’s nothing that really makes me think that this guy is really off until, you know, this interaction at the bus stop.

>> It does escalate from here.

Even when you move away from where you are going to college, like he seeks you out and finds you like miles and miles away from where you initially have contact with him.

What was that like to know that this man is now like he’s becoming a threat? He’s actually following you and and not just following you down the street, but like to an entirely new town.

>> Yeah.

And I I mean hindsight’s always 2020, but you know, at the time I thought, you know, this isn’t just a problem that I’m going to leave behind when I graduate.

I won’t be on this campus anymore.

He has a like he’s got a motorcycle, which where we live, you can only ride a few months a year because of the snow.

Like I’m going to be moving to a different part of the state, like two plus hours away by car.

And then I had planned to go halfway across the country for this like ministry internship.

So I >> like I can just leave all this behind, right? >> I can just leave this person behind despite what’s happening.

You know, I don’t necessarily have to get the law involved because yeah, probably what he’s doing is wrong, but why would I go through all of that if I’m just going to be, you know, moving? I’m, you know, I was a very busy college student.

I had an internship.

I worked all through college.

Um, I had a heavy course load.

I volunteered.

Like it was just I didn’t have spare time to think about how can I, you know, go about this.

I just thought, you know, I’m going to leave this person behind and this is going to be history.

>> But also too, at 20, sorry to interrupt you, but like I had a vaguely stalky incident with someone when I was also in my early 20s.

And it and people always ask me every time I tell the story, did you tell police? And I was like, well, no, I didn’t because I was 20some and just kind of getting on with my life and it didn’t really occur to me that I should have probably taken it further.

Did you feel that way? Like, you know, when you’re 20 and you’ve got your life ahead of you and things are happening and like you just the last thing you want to do is like get involved in all of that kind of stuff.

Does that make sense to you, too? >> Yeah.

And I think I think maybe had I had more time where I would have been on the same campus or within the same city or something as him, I I probably would have.

>> Um, but knowing that I was moving multiple hours away and he was I knew he was still going to be at that campus studying, I was like, there’s this big physical divide where it’s not going to be easy for him to come check up on me.

like if I have him blocked on everything, there’s essentially no way he can get in touch with me.

He’s not just going to be, you know, driving places to find me and then I’m going to be several states away where it’s like a 14-hour drive.

Like there’s no way I’m going to see this person again.

Um, you know, he’s not going to abandon his studies or something.

And you know, it just to me it was like this is an easier fix of like I’m just going to move on with my life and distance and time is going to solve it because he’s not like he’s not crazy.

He’s just another college student.

Um and then that summer, it was like two days before I was planning to move halfway across the country for this ministry internship.

Um, he shows up in my hometown and I’m shocked.

I’m like, how did he find me here? I mean, my town is like very small, but to just show up somewhere and drive around until you find somebody is weird.

That’s wild to me.

Um, and then he says, “Hey, I think I’m going to go to the same internship as you.

I just got accepted.

Can you give me a ride?” And I’m just like, “There’s no way.

We’re both going halfway across the country.

I’m not I don’t know what what can I do about this? This person isn’t listening to me and now they’re trying to ruin the thing I’ve been looking forward to is kind of this gap year, you know, between uh finishing undergrad and going to grad school.

That was kind of my plan is to take this sort of gap year and, you know, do I not do that now or do I try to get him kicked out? And it becomes really obvious I need to kind of get the legal system involved at this point.

And you know, my family friend is like, “Tell me more about this guy.

What’s going on?” And the more we like lay everything out, I’m like, “Oh.

” We’re like, “Yeah, he’s stalking me.

” And it’s, you know, clearly even distance isn’t stopping him.

Nothing I’ve said has stopped him.

and now this, you know, distance and now he’s even trying to come even farther, you know, potentially abandoning his studies and coming halfway across the country.

We’re like, no.

So, yeah, we file for a personal protection order and right before I left and it was for seven years, which was unheard of.

>> Um, >> did that actually make you feel safer knowing that that order was in place? It did.

Um, I knew that I could petition in another state for another one and it likely could be granted like because I was moving out of state, but I figured, you know, having the law involved made me feel like there was somebody else on my side and somebody else telling this person that what you’re doing isn’t okay.

Um, and essentially it sort of solved the issue like I got him kicked out of that internship.

We got this protection order and I ended up seeing him around the holidays.

He came out this ministry had a huge conference around the holidays and he found me there.

Like he came around this corner.

There’s like 20,000 people at this big conference like needle in a hay stack.

And so I like tell security and like have a male friend like escort me home every day like all of this stuff.

And I never see him again.

Like seven years go by and I think you know it took that to finally shake him off and get him to move on with life.

Um, and then I finished grad school and I moved back to kind of sort of my hometown more or less, you know, that area.

And I buy a house, you know, I’m in my late 20s now.

I’m starting my career.

Um, yeah, I’m just like have moved on with life and I’m playing in this wreck soccer league with other adults and this was like, you know, people are wearing masks because it’s COVID and we’re like playing on small-sided teams like trying to be safe about, you know, also getting fresh air and socializing and things like that.

And, you know, I see him and I just, you know, my heart drops like what is he doing here? What is he doing in this city all these years later? is he, you know, I my first thing is, oh my gosh, has he followed me here? And I think that’s crazy.

It’s been so long since I’ve seen him.

I haven’t had a message from him.

I haven’t heard from him.

You know, it’s not like he’s waving at me or trying to talk to me either.

So, I just don’t, you know, I don’t know what to think of it.

It’s so interesting because when you talk about that first protection order that you have in place, you have so much evidence that he’s stalking you.

So many interactions.

You have Facebook messages.

You’ve got witnesses who’ve seen you tell him no.

You’ve got, you know, people backing up your story.

And it’s almost like because you said then he didn’t interact with you even though he knows who you are and and you know who he is.

He’s come face to face with you on this soccer team and doesn’t say anything to you and doesn’t really even acknowledge that you know each other.

It’s almost like he’s learned from that first protection order not to give evidence that he’s stalking because to a judge then that just looks like, oh, he just happens to be in the same place at the same time doing the same thing as you.

If he doesn’t even speak to you, then obviously he’s not stalking you.

Do you feel like he was clever enough to understand his behavior after that protection order expired needed to be different? Yeah, I think so.

And I don’t know what that was exactly like for him in terms of like if that was a strategy um you know to essentially I had a really hard time proving that he was stalking me because he wasn’t doing the normal things where he was sending me messages or leaving me gifts or trying to talk to me.

You know, the only thing was I was seeing him everywhere and he wasn’t even acknowledging me.

So, it just felt I kind of felt crazy like this feels wrong to me.

Like, I’m seeing him way more than I should.

There’s something off about this.

And I just kept thinking, well, if I were him in this situation, and I really didn’t think anything of it, would I at least acknowledge and wave to the person? Would I, you know, say, “Hey,” in passing, would I, you know, what would I do if I were him? you know, I I didn’t know.

It was like I just it didn’t I I couldn’t get it to add up.

Um but something felt very wrong um to me and I felt like I essentially had to stalk him to prove that he was stalking me.

You know, in my gut I was like, I don’t have enough evidence for a new protection order because he isn’t, you know, unless you can tie in all these previous things he’s done.

you know, I couldn’t really start from scratch and say this person’s stalking me, which, you know, essentially was kind of what I had to do.

Um, I don’t think they even reviewed the first PO when I applied again um the summer before he kidnapped me um in July 2022.

Um, I had the help of an assistant prosecutor and I’m a master’s degree social worker and I still got my like PO denied after all of this history.

And it just was so discouraging.

Um, and that to me I just thought, you know, why what is the downside to the to having a PO? Like if he’s truly not stalking me, then it shouldn’t make a difference.

and if he is, then there’s something, you know, to charge him with.

Yeah.

Um, >> so it was it was incredibly, you know, discouraging going through that second BO process and just feeling like there’s something wrong here and I don’t know what to do about it.

And at the same time, what can I I’m not going to stop living my life.

I’m not going to sell my house and up and move, you know? I’m not going to stop playing in this soccer league that you know my friends were like you know stop playing there change gyms like these places you’re seeing him go do some stop going there and I’m like well should I just I shouldn’t have to change my whole life because this person is doing something wrong and is that going to solve it? I don’t think so.

That’s something that I think is quite telling when I did watch the documentary is that you did refuse to let him make your life smaller because that seemed to be almost what he was trying to do by being everywhere.

And we’ll discuss how he knew where you were at all times in a minute.

But >> yeah, >> it seems like his motive for doing that was to kind of get you to make your life as small as possible so that he was the everything part of your life.

that he would be the focus of your every single waking moment, whereas you kind of refused to do that and were just like, I am I’m not going to allow that to happen.

How do you find the fortitude in yourself to to make that decision? Because it would be so easy to shrink away and try and hide from all of that.

>> And ultimately, that’s a lot of what stalking’s about.

I mean, stalking, domestic violence, whether you’re being stalked by someone you’re in a rel or were in a relationship with or someone you don’t know, a lot of it is about control and that person having the upper hand.

And I’m kind of like thinking about my own coping skills and styles and things that make me feel calm in myself are like, I like to be able to go to the gym.

I like to be able to, you know, go running in my safe neighborhood.

I like to play on a soccer team.

And those are all things that help center me and connect me with other people.

And by like forcing me out of that, it’s, you know, kind of trying to shake me up.

And I’m like, I don’t I don’t know.

I think I’m just such a stubborn independent person that I was like angry with my friends at suggesting this because I’m like this is driving me crazy and I don’t want to stop doing the things that I’m doing.

Like it’s not like I’m, you know, walking around a dangerous city at night with headphones on like waiting for somebody to kidnap me.

Like I’m I’m varying up my routines.

I’m like locking all my door.

like I’m doing all these logical safe things, but at the end of the day, I’m like there’s things that are important to me and I shouldn’t have to.

It’s like him winning.

I’m not going to stop being stop playing soccer.

I It’s something I enjoy.

I have I’m making friends here.

I, you know, I’m safe about how I do it.

I don’t park in the same place.

I sometimes get somebody to drive me.

You know, all these things that I was trying to be thoughtful of.

And eventually when someone’s persistent enough, it just isn’t enough.

Um, and not that a protection order would have prevented him from doing any of this.

I think that’s clear that it probably wouldn’t have mattered.

Um, but kind of going back to your question, I think he was very specific in particular about what he didn’t did and didn’t do kind of the second time around in terms of speaking with me or, you know, interacting with me in any way.

>> When did he speak to you again? like all this time he’s kind of around you and he’s interacting with the environment around you but he doesn’t interact with you personally and your friends do eventually interact with him but does he ever speak to you again like does he ever give you any idea of what it is he wants from you >> honestly no I never I don’t speak with him he never approaches me even asks to speak with me there’s no we have one interaction on the soccer field where I am like late to coming to this game and he’s asked to like be a substitute on our team and a couple people from my team weren’t aware of who he was.

I told a bunch of them who he was.

Um and so I come and it’s like co-ed group so you need to have like a certain number of women.

We were always short on women playing.

So it was like I showed up.

I had to be on the field.

Otherwise, we were short a player.

And so I’m like, I’ll play.

This is my team, but I’m not playing with him.

And that was the only real interaction I had was like not even speaking to him, but telling my team, I’m I’m here to play on this team with you, but I will not play with this man, and this is why.

Like I told them, you know, why.

And he just like looked at me like he had no idea what I was talking about.

That was the closest we came to interacting.

Um, and I was like, “You’re like following me.

Like, I’m not I you’re not Get out of here.

Like, you’re not playing with us.

” Um, and that No, I had never spoken with him until he broke into my house on October 7th, 2022.

um and while I was asleep and broke into my bedroom and kidnapped me.

>> What did he say to you in that moment? Cuz he did break in and you wake when and I we call it your Spidey sense when you know that something isn’t right or someone’s there.

And so you wake up before he actually enters your room and then he forces his way in so quickly that even though you’ taken measures, you had put a weapon underneath your mattress ready to defend yourself, but even that wasn’t accessible enough in the speed in which he came and grabbed you, was it? >> Yeah.

I mean, he was prepared obviously and I had been sleeping.

So, like I’m >> not fully there.

I’m thinking if this person’s prepared and if they don’t have a weapon now, I’m introducing one like this person is clearly here for me who’s on the other side of my bedroom door right now.

If they were robbing me, they would have been robbing me and it would have been that they wouldn’t be standing outside my door.

Um, so yeah, I mean he told me basically he like put his hands around my neck and was like strangling me to get me to stop screaming.

And he’s like, “I just want to talk.

” And I’m like, “No sane person says they just want to talk in this situation.

” like you’ve seen me every week for however many weeks because you show up to the same, you know, soccer group I’m a part of and you’ve never approached me once to talk and now you’re breaking into my house and I’m in my underwear in bed like this is not what you do when you want to talk to somebody.

And so, you know, I immediately thought like, he’s going to kill me.

There’s no way people get out of this.

like I don’t know what weapons he has or you know and he binds me.

He puts a gag around my mouth and tape all around my head and carries me out.

I’m shackled at my hands and feet.

I’m like he’s going to murder.

He’s going to rape and murder me, you know, is what I was positive was going to happen.

I, you know, he took me out of my house and I thought it’s the last time ever I’m ever going to see this.

The last time I’m not going to see daylight again.

Sun wasn’t even up yet.

um wherever he was taking me and he brought me to this like um it was really close to my house too.

He brought me to this um like storage unit he had rented out.

He had rented two side by side and taken the wall out and built this impressive construction I must say.

but built this like soundproof bunker um within this storage unit that had multiple doors and locks and there were sandbags to the ceiling um with like a bed and like shackles on the wall basically.

And I’m like, “Oh yeah, this is where I’m going to die.

” Um but he just keeps saying, you know, I just want to talk, you know, I wanna He reveals like we’re going to be here for two weeks together.

like I took two weeks off work and we’re going to spend it in this soundproof bunker together and I just think you’ve lost it.

Like yes, he was all the things I thought and worse.

And I found out he had been tracking my car, you know, which we had suspected because how is he showing up all these places? We couldn’t find a tracker anywhere on my vehicle.

>> But he wasn’t just tracking your car, was he? >> Nope.

Nope.

my car.

I had like a kind of beat up truck I used from time to time.

Um, my roommate’s car, my friend’s car, anyone I spent enough time with really.

He wanted to know who I was with, what I was doing.

>> Have you watched back the documentary yet? >> I have just once.

>> What’s it like to look at that setup? Cuz like the the police body cam takes you in there and shows you around and you can see all the work that he’s put into that.

You What’s that like to see that? Yeah, it’s it’s weird.

I mean, it looks to me it looks less intimidating than what it did when I was there because it was like really dark and, you know, arranged in a slightly different way.

Um, it was it was definitely strange.

Um, but also like, oh, this is like something that someone would create in a horror movie.

like you know seeing those rings on the wall and it yeah it was I mean it was a lot but at the same time I feel like I’ve so h thankful to be alive and have made it through everything.

I know there’s so many folks that are stalked or abducted or raped or any combination of those and don’t survive that.

Um, I feel like I’m very thankful to be able to tell my story and I want to somehow honor the people that didn’t have that opportunity.

Um, you know, because of no reason of their own, just how things went.

You know, I don’t feel like there’s anything unique about me that I survived and others didn’t.

Um, but yeah, watching it back is is heavy in that way because I think, you know, that’s not a situation you think people are probably going to survive.

You said that a few times that in your mind in that moment you’re like, “This is it.

This is where I’m going to die.

He’s going to kill me.

” Do you ever actually really accept that and understand that because that is so far from our normal day-to-day reality? Like, how do you in that moment come to terms with the fact that this could be the end of my life? At the same time, I’m imagining in your brain, you’re like, “How do I survive this? How do I get away from him? How do I how do I beat this man who is so much bigger than me and so much stronger than me and who has literally got me shackled and tied to a wall in a soundproof bunker?” Like, it feels like every single thing that could potentially be against you is against you in that moment.

How do you first of all reconcile the fact that you’re in a position that you might not make it through and then also find the fight to get out of it? I don’t know.

I mean, there definitely was that moment specifically as we were leaving my house and we were in the car, you know, going to this bunker and once we got there and I saw what it was and what was, you know, what his plan was, you know, I was like, okay, like I don’t I don’t know.

It’s it was like a weird like sort of piece in some way of like perhaps this is it and I hope I’m satisfied with what I’ve done but at the same time I’m not just going to give up because of what I’m seeing like there’s got to be some there’s got to be some way and I’m going to try you know I value my life enough that I’m going to try to get out of this you know and obviously I was striking out.

I can’t fight my way out.

I can’t scream my way out.

I can’t, you know, all these common things.

I essentially the only thing I had to do was kind of outsmart him or convince him to let me go.

Was really the only kind of tool I had at my disposal.

>> He also kind of took hope away from you too, didn’t he? Because I think the thing that we would all think if someone was to kidnap us is that someone will be looking for us.

like someone will come to find us and they will start telling police and like people will be mobilized to look for me.

But he had a plan for that already.

>> Yeah, he had planned um you know obviously with time he wasn’t a complete idiot.

He was like you know people will start probably looking for her if she’s missing.

He had already loaded my inflatable paddle board um into my car when he took me.

So he was planning to drive leave my car and an inflatable inflatable paddle board out on the Great Lakes and you know which is like a massive a massive lake in October.

It’s cold at this point where we live and it look like you can’t see the other side of the lake.

It’s gigantic.

It looks like the ocean.

Um, so, you know, he had planned to kind of fake my death and just sort of keep the cops busy.

I don’t I don’t know.

And so, and then he was going to have to walk 20, 30 miles back to where we were.

So, I’m like, okay, I was going to be alone potentially shackled to a wall a whole day while he played the my death out.

Like, I don’t I don’t know.

That was kind of wild, too.

and he had like planned for that to happen because I saw the paddle board in the car and I was like, “Oh my gosh, he wasn’t just blowing steam.

This was his real plan.

” Um, and I I did feel like time was also not on my side because once people start thinking I’m missing and the police get involved, he’s going to get more panic because the first, you know, anybody close to me is going to say, “Look at him.

Find this guy and you’re going to find her.

” Um, and so I kind of thought, well, geez, if he gets agitated, he’s cal he’s relatively calm now.

You know, he’s spooked.

He knows like, oh man, I just like did something really bad.

Like he admitted like, I can’t believe I did that.

And I’m like, yeah, me too.

Like, so what are we here for? But um I mean all humor aside though I yeah it was I did feel like time was like kind of not on my side too cuz as time went farther like I was like I have to get out of this by today because by tomorrow people are going to know there’s something wrong like I’m not just going to disappear and tell nobody where I am and not have my location on my phone or anything.

um and not show up to work.

Like all these things just didn’t, you know, wouldn’t make sense.

So, I was kind of like, you know, once he gets agitated, who knows? Like, if he didn’t want to kill me now, he probably would want to then if he’s, you know, back against a wall.

>> So, this is the first time you’ve had a conversation with him since that protective order has expired and you know that he’s following you again.

So, what does he finally tell you? What does he want from you? Why has he kidnapped you in the very early hours of a morning and chucked you in a box essentially? Like, what does he want? >> Uh, he’s in love with me.

He wants to get married.

Um, he he acknowledges that I would have no interest in that and that that wouldn’t be practical.

Um, you know, which is good, I think.

Um, but he essentially is just like, you know, I’ve never been able to get over you.

I never felt like you gave me closure.

You know, you wouldn’t I was like, it’s not like we ever dated.

What, you know, I’m thinking, what kind of closure was there? You just stalked me.

Like, the only closure I need is for you to leave me alone.

Um, and so I kind of, you know, appease him.

I’m like, you know, I’m sorry that was really unfair of me to do all those years ago.

and you know kind of catered to him and listened to him like I had trained as a therapist.

It was like I get how to like listen to people and try to get to like what the heart of their issue and concern is.

And that was kind of what I did.

And I discovered, you know, he was still in love with me and he feared I thought he was nuts.

And I was like, well, clearly you are, but >> um >> clearly you are, but I have to.

>> But also weird that he’s aware of that.

Like he’s aware that what he’s doing people will think is crazy.

Like he’s aware of that if he’s saying that to you.

>> Yeah.

And I almost had to convince him otherwise.

Like we can kind of forget about all of this.

We’ve had this misunderstanding.

Like you know I’m trying to think what can I do to get out of this of like how will he let me go while he’s afraid of going to prison? you know, as soon as anybody thinks I’m missing and go to find him, like, we need to pretend this never happened, maybe so that he doesn’t go to prison and that maybe we could just be friends.

Like, I don’t think he would believe that I actually have a romantic interest in him.

That would be too unbelievable.

But could we have some sort of friendship, something? So, I spend this whole day, you know, trying to, you know, answer his questions.

I learn, you know, I ask him things, try to find out more about his motivations and his life and he’s just this like sad, lonely person and just has not been able to get over me in all these years.

And I just it blows me away.

Like it was sad to me, but it was also terrifying um that somebody, you know, could feel that way about someone for so long and knowingly commit this many crimes to be able to see and talk to them.

Like it’s just wild to me.

And clearly, you know, clearly I thought the whole time, you know, he’s going to try to rape me one way or another.

Um whatever that looked like.

Um, and essentially that’s kind of what it comes down to.

Like we’re waning into the night at this point and I, you know, try to convince him like if you let me go tonight, nobody needs to know that this happened.

Um, and he’s like, well, how am I supposed to trust you? My life’s in your hands.

I’m like, well, my life has been in your hands all day.

And he essentially is like, I’m not going to let you go unless we have sex.

And I’m just like there’s no world that makes me want to do that.

And I’m very clear like I have no interest in that.

And this is going to be really bad for us if that like if this if we’re at this stalemate and we don’t you know we run out of time.

People know I’m missing.

It’s going to escalate the whole situation.

So I end up like making it very clear to him.

I don’t want to sleep with you.

I’m not.

But like if this is what the terms of this agreement are, like I want you to look me in the eyes and shake my hand that if we have sex, you’ll let me go.

Um, and knowing like to me, I’m like, there’s no way anybody can actually give consent in this situation.

It doesn’t really dawn on me that he doesn’t quite understand that, you know, until later on in the legal process.

Um, you know, he thinks, well, she agreed, you know, not not well, I’m locked in a box and you might kill me otherwise, so or you could just tie me to this wall and rape me anyway.

Um, you know, what’s the safest thing for me in this situation? So, I made that really awful decision.

Um, and then he eventually followed through with his end of the promise and let me go.

was wild, you know, was this like, oh my gosh, I’m I did this.

Like, I thought I I thought all day I was going to die and now I’m just You just let me go into my car and what? Like, what just happened? Um, so yeah, I mean I had spent the whole day like trying to gather as much information about him and the setting as I could because I knew I was like if I can get out of this and go to police, he’s done so many crimes that he’ll be put away.

>> Um, >> what I thought was incredible too, after everything you’ve just gone through and having to make that god awful decision to save your own life, you have the presence of mind to know that you can’t jump in your car and drive to a police station because you know that that man is tracking your car now.

So, you’re like, “How do I strategize to get myself to safety in a way that he won’t be able to follow me?” So, you really think this out and you find someone that you think a neighbor whose car probably isn’t being tracked and get their help in order to get you to the hospital because you know you need to go to hospital first before law enforcement gets involved even.

So, like is your mind just spinning at 1,000 miles an hour trying to come up with plans at this stage or are you now at a point where you’ve been stuck for 13 years? Is that how your brain works now? Is that how your brain subconsciously goes, I understand what it means to avoid this man now and I now have taken it next level seriously? >> It had that’s an interesting question.

I feel like it had in those last couple years I felt like had been sort of a training ground >> for that whole day because I did feel like I always had to be on edge.

You know, where am I going? Is this something that’s safe? you know, if something were to happen, would there be witness? Like, I was always thinking about those kinds of things.

Like, I was somebody who liked to go hiking with my dog.

You know, I was on edge and very cautious about what I was doing, where I was going, you know, those kinds of things.

Always like, what kind of car is following me? Have I seen this person before? Sort of thing.

So, I feel like I don’t know.

Also, our minds are a brilliant thing.

Like, when that’s all you have to survive, like I don’t know, you hear about mothers being able to lift vehicles off their children, like this, you know, survival instinct.

And I feel like because my mind was the only thing that was going to get me out of that, I just, you know, could do everything in that day, you know, I was I was really on point.

I, you know, was I made like one mistake probably through that one or maybe two very small mistakes through that whole day where I was like, I have done everything I can to get myself out of this situation and to stay safe even from the moment I he let me go and like getting going home because he was tracking my car.

you know, if he saw that I wasn’t going home like I said I was going to, would he have, you know, tailgated me or ended up like running me off the road or something? Or would he have shown up at the hospital or police station with me and had some other story of his own? Like, you know, how can I do this in the safest way possible and, you know, get him in trouble? Um, so yeah, I knew from my being a social worker, I knew I needed a sane exam.

I knew knew that DNA evidence was important.

Um, I needed to get to the hospital for that.

I was like, also, this is a wild thing that’s happened.

I’m not just going to go call the cops and be like, this is what happened.

Because they would have been like, yeah, okay, we’ll send somebody.

you know, I just didn’t >> if I heard that story, I would have been skeptical, too.

If I heard something like that over the phone, I’m like, if I’m in a safe place at the hospital, um, you know, I think it’ll be a different setting.

There’s going to be potentially DNA evidence now.

And what was it like seeing yourself in hospital after that day? Cuz the police had his body cam on when he came to interview you.

Like what’s it like to see you in that hospital bed in the aftermath of everything you’d been through that day? I imagine that would be so difficult to see.

>> It was I don’t know that it was necessarily difficult.

It was interesting seeing me like seeing that back in that setting and like how I felt like my jaw hurt so bad.

like I had ice packs on my jaw and that you know some of that film and I just remember you know being on the other side watching the detective and like trying to answer his questions and thinking like is he believing me and you know seeing it from his perspective of this person.

I don’t know that it was necessarily difficult.

I think, you know, watching back, you know, hearing about how my I had to tell my friends that this happened and, you know, the court process and all of that was, you know, difficult.

I think watching my friends and family go through this was like probably harder than I feel like me going through it.

Um, you know, I can’t imagine this happening to a loved one.

And like, you know, yeah, I’d want to reach across the table and ring his neck probably if I if this happened to, you know, someone I cared about.

And >> one of your friends is like, I wish I’d killed him that day that he confronted him and he turned up at a place where you were.

He’s like, I wish I’d done more.

I wish I’d killed him.

>> Like, >> no, I think probably there’s a lot of people in my life that feel that way or have said similar things just because you you know, how do you how do you reconcile that? And I’m I don’t know, for some reason it feels different being myself.

I’m like, not that I’ve necessarily forgiven him, but I don’t feel a lot of anger toward him, surprisingly.

Um, I’m very thankful that he’s in prison.

I wouldn’t believe a thing that comes out of his mouth even, you know.

>> Well, can you talk us through that court process because there was a couple of things that happened there.

one, he came up with a story to explain why and how you ended up in a soundproof box inside a storage unit in the middle of the night.

Um, actually, yeah, answer that first.

Like, can you talk us through the story that he gave police and then kind of tried to give in court about how you ended up in that soundproof box? Yeah.

So, I had asked to through a lot of my therapy process, I had asked to come to the courthouse and like meet the prosecutor and go through some of the evidence just for like exposure therapy.

Um, you know, especially off the bat right after this happened, like I wasn’t sleeping.

I was having, you know, difficulties with open doors and small places and things like bananas and like weird.

Anyway, so when we went there, she had prefaced, you know, we have this video of his, you know, interrogation, but I want to warn you what his, you know, I want to preface this is kind of what he says.

And they, you know, they asked me about it as well.

like, you know, can you he claims this, can you tell me more about, you know, have you had sexual relations with him? His defense initially when he speaks with the detectives after being arrested was that we had um a longstanding roleplaying sexual thing going on um where I had asked him to surprise me at this day and time at my house on a Friday at 700 am on a work day.

Um, and he took things a little too far.

Um, was kind of his defense and that I was upset about it.

Um, you know, and there was no, you know, well, how would you plan these sort of meetups? Like your number is blocked on her phone.

Like there’s no evidence of any communication between you.

How are are you meeting in person and like talking this through? Like, well, no.

like like well she’s somewhere and I’ll show up so like okay so you’re following her like no like just none of it makes sense.

Um and bless him.

One of the detectives said well when my wife says she wants to be surprised I’ll come home with chocolates and flowers.

I don’t come and you know choke her and bind her and take her somewhere.

like that’s not a that’s not necessarily a surprise.

Um and so it was just this kind of crazy idea um that was kind of his initial defense.

Um you know later he obviously they could tease that out that any of that was not accurate.

Um that was his story and he had pled ultimately he plead guilty by um advice of his legal counsel.

Um but his attorney had a really hard time working with him.

I think they had tried many cognitive evaluations to see if he could be deemed incompetent.

Um essentially get mental health treatment instead of standing trial or being sentenced.

Um but he just kept passing the cognitive test.

So that drew everything out by like a year.

So he’s just sitting in jail and I’m sitting at my house, you know, not sure.

I end up having to sell my house.

I’m like, I can’t live here anymore.

My roommate moves out.

She’s like, I don’t want to live here.

I’m like, I get it, but now now I’m here alone.

And it was just Yeah, it was a rough time.

And then, you know, it was February uh 2024 before he was sentenced.

Um and I >> wild too is that the judge ends up being the same one who denied your protection order, right? >> Yeah, that’s what I was just going to say.

It was the same judge that when I found that out, I was like, “Oh, no.

” Like, this was the same judge that had denied my protective order.

And to be clear, the court had said, you know, we would like you both to appear in person to figure out to get to the bottom of this to determine if we can order that second.

>> This is before he kidnapped you.

Yeah, >> this is before he kidnapped me.

Um, but I’m like, “No, I’m not like poking this bear in case they don’t, you know, give it.

” So that was kind of the court’s defense, but at the same time, I was like, “This person never like the court never even looked into my previous PO.

They just kind of dismissed my request and now this happened and this awful thing has happened and now we’re right in front of this same judge again.

” And so I think, well, this is either maybe going to help me or hurt me.

I don’t really know.

You know, I don’t know this person.

I don’t know.

I would hope that they’re fair.

They’re a judge.

you know, there’s plenty of evidence there.

Um, >> that’s the thing with a lot of women who do take things this, you know, down a legal avenue is that there’s a fear that even if they are believed that the legal system might not back them up at the end of the day.

And I that’s the thing for you is like if he doesn’t plead guilty, if he doesn’t go to jail, like where does that leave you? >> Yeah.

Then essentially, I was warned very clearly like if he doesn’t take a plea deal or if we don’t offer him that for whatever reason and this goes to trial, everything about you will be scrutinized.

And I’m like, why should I I’m not the one who’s on trial.

I I’m the victim in this situation or theoretically the victim if you believed maybe this didn’t happen.

Um, but it just was kind of wild to me and I was like, there’s so much evidence, but even then like my sexual history probably would have been dragged through court or just anything about me.

Um, which seems so intrusive and unfair.

um when it’s something that happened to me and not you know but he did he did end up taking a plea deal and he wouldn’t plead guilty to any of the sexual assault charges which is something that really I struggled with for a while just because I’m like you rape me I want you to be labeled as a rapist.

Um, >> is that because he fully believed that what had happened between you was consensual? >> Yes.

His his legal counsel even said this would be in your interest to even plead to at least one of them um and demonstrate that you have remorse, etc.

Um, and he said, “No, I you know, she consented.

This was this was not an inappropriate act.

” And I just like however many times it sounded like his attorney tried to explain it to him or other people tried to explain consent and what needs to be in place for that being locked in a room under duress, you know, that doesn’t allow someone to give consent.

Um, so yeah, that that part I kind of struggled with because I was like, I want him to be fully responsible for all of the charges, but the judge can consider the full case when sentencing even if formal, you know, charges are dismissed.

And I don’t it didn’t really make the documentary, but the judge did have a pretty lengthy statement toward me about just was very complimentary.

Um like before I’m reading my impact statement and so I’m just like, you know, terrified.

He’s like, Christopher’s there 15t from me.

I’m standing in front of this judge and he’s, you know, I think, well, that’s a good sign.

He’s like, you know, you saved your own life and you know, all of this kind of thing.

Um, and he really ripped into Christopher like, you know, he took that into consideration the his expected, you know, his life expectancy based on his age, etc.

He essentially got sentenced 40 to 60 years, which at about 40 years of age, he’s going to be at least 80 by the time he gets out, more or less a a life sentence.

Um, so I was thankful for that.

Um, and essentially, you know, the judge was like, if you’ve been doing this to this person for this long, I don’t see there being any chance of rehabilitation um, for you.

Which is sad because I don’t think it was probably always like that.

You know, had he had a therapist or some other intervention way back in college or something, you know, could things have been different? you know, his life is ruined because of it.

Not to say I feel bad about that necessarily, but in terms of mental health and impact, you know, it’s not just about as women, how do we protect ourselves? Well, yeah, maybe I don’t become somebody who’s a victim, but somebody else will because that person’s going to go ahead and stalk someone else or sexually assault someone else.

And statistically, that’s the case.

Um, >> well, you found that out eventually, right? >> Yeah.

They found even with Christopher, he had stalked another woman prior to me that nobody knew like it was on like file.

It was legally there, but you know, I didn’t know about it.

>> And he’d actually gone to prison over that.

Had he gone spent time behind bars for that or was he charged at least with something? >> I don’t know if he served time or not.

Um maybe if it might have been a short sort of jail sentence.

Usually a first offense sort of thing is kind of a slap on the wrist.

Um >> yeah, he had been in trouble for this before.

Um, yeah.

So, for me, I’m like, how can we help make laws that can give make things easier for victims to get help to get protection orders, to get resources, etc.

And how do we also prevent people from engaging in this behavior to begin with? Um, you know, I know the pandemic wasn’t kind to a lot of folks in terms of mental health and maybe this was, you know, something that went into all of it for him, but, you know, people don’t become like this overnight usually.

You know, this is something that’s a process.

And you know, the fact that people that were close to him, like friends, you know, saw that what he had gotten in trouble for and immediately thought of me makes me think you knew something was wrong and you you know, what do you do about it though? you know, is there are there more resources where you can try to get somebody help more easily or it’s not a burden financial burden to the person or doesn’t, you know, get them in legal trouble, but how do they get help or how do they even realize that there’s something wrong? You know, I’m not confident that Chris knew that there was something off, you know, >> but even the conversations he had with his mom on the phone from prison where she was saying to him like, “I could have helped maybe had I known and had I got you help when you were younger.

” And also, he kind of said to her that it probably wouldn’t have made a difference anyway.

>> We’ll never know.

>> I I mean, I like to think that early intervention would be helpful, that you can change the course of somebody’s life.

I mean, in every case, probably not, but for some people, definitely.

You know, if you had gotten more help or resources or other things to help socialize or to process your feelings more, um, you know, particularly for men, that’s not men don’t like talking about their feelings.

They don’t know where to go.

It become, it comes out in anger.

You know, you have all these other, you know, issues that happen because of it.

Um, you know, how do we get people the kind of help they need to kind of help them, you know, get get on their goals and, you know, find him an appropriate partner or love interest or something that’s, you know, >> a healthy relationship.

Yeah.

>> A no, a no is no.

And it’s not a okay, well, let me try again later.

It’s a no.

This person says no, and so I’m going to look elsewhere.

Just finally, Samantha, I I want to know like it’s been three years since that happened to you.

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