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Uh today is day 54 in the search for Nancy Guthrie.

Um a ton of new information coming out with this Savannah Guthrie uh interview that she did.

Um some of the things I was expecting her to say, other things just kind of blew my mind.

I mean, there’s some details that came out that that she revealed that um I wasn’t expecting and I didn’t know about, and I’m going to go through all of the new developments uh and everything that that stood out to me that she said and what I think it means uh coming up in this episode.

Also, you’re going to hear from Marine Oonnell.

She’s my friend.

She’s a u uh retired FBI agent.

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She’s been on the show a bunch.

I know you guys love her.

I love Moren, too.

She’s got some really new interesting theories um when it comes to how Nancy Guthrie was taken out of the house.

Uh and also um the whole possibility of a Mexico connection.

Could the suspects have gone back to Mexico or the suspect? Uh and I’ve never really been able to shake the possibility of a Mexico connection.

I know early on, you remember I I went to Mexico looking around.

Uh and I know early on the sheriff’s office said, you know, there’s no reason to believe that Nancy is in Mexico or that this involves anyone in Mexico.

But at the same time, we’ve never been told why not to believe that.

And I don’t know, I just I haven’t I’m not saying there’s a Mexican connection.

I just haven’t been able to shake it.

And there’s some new information on that front that I am going to talk to Moren about coming up a little later in the episode.

Uh but first I do want to go through the key developments when it comes to uh Savannah Guthrie and the interview that she did uh with um Hoda that came out on the Today Show.

First of all, I mean it’s just it’s gut-wrenching.

Um it it is gut-wrenching and it is one of the reasons that I have felt so invested in this story is because I’ve thought about her and her family and what they have been going through.

And when you saw her in this interview, you realized just um the agony and even though we are now on day 54 for them, the pain is still so raw and the not knowing is is still excruciating.

And that came through very clearly in in Savannah’s interview.

So, the first part I want to play for you and then I’ll talk about it is uh how and I had wondered about this, you know, because I we all think I think one of the reasons we’re all so invested in the story is because we’re all um thinking about our own moms and I’m like so close to my mom and I’m only I’m an only child and like I’m very very close to my mom and I’ve played out in my mind like how I would handle realizing if my mom was gone and abducted and so this is the first thing that Savannah talked about is how she found out and what went through her mind.

And my sister called me and I said, “Is everything okay?” And she said, “No.

” She said, “Mom’s missing.

” And I said, “What?” Yeah.

What are you talking about? She said, “She’s gone.

” And we She was in a panic.

I I was in a panic.

I’m like, “Call 911.

” She’s like, “I did.

We’ve called them.

They’re here.

” And we thought that she must have had like some kind of medical episode in the night and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come uh because the back doors were propped open, you know, and that didn’t make any sense.

We thought maybe they came and there was a stretcher and they took her out the back, but her phone was there and her purse was there and all her things and it just didn’t make any sense.

So, you know, Annie and Tommy had already called all the hospitals, but then I’m like, I’m going to call the hospitals.

So, then I started calling the hospitals and and the the police were there and talking to her at the same time and it was just chaos.

So, it really stood out to me that she talked about the back doors being propped open and she there was a plural there, back doors being propped open.

Um, now I don’t know if that was just the way she was kind of saying it and maybe it’s a back door, but I picked up on that, more than one door being propped open, she said.

Uh, did the suspect I mean, remember we we saw the suspect or suspects on the front doorbell camera in the front of the house, but did they enter through the back? Did they take Nancy out through the back? Um, did they perhaps just enter through the back and then open up the front door and open up that security gate and take Nancy out the front, which would explain why we saw the blood in the front? That seems like a real possibility.

We still don’t know, but the fact that Savannah is acknowledging that the back doors were propped open um is very uh interesting.

Uh and and in my mind creates several different scenarios in the way this may have um all gone down.

Also, the fact obviously that her phone and purse were there.

These are things that I had heard early on that it didn’t appear to be a burglary.

um you know and then the fact that she was a barefoot and that she was in her pajamas again it just creates this mental picture of how terrifying this must have been for her when it seemed she was dragged out of there um and and the way that Savannah described that is just is just heartbreaking.

She also talks about NY’s condition and um you know we knew that she is mentally with it but that she had mobility issues and we’re hearing a little more detail about exactly uh how um bad some of those mobility issues are and how that may play into what happened here.

She was in tremendous pain.

Her back was very bad.

You know, she was trying to on a good day she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail but most days not.

So there was no wander off and the doors were popped open.

Yeah.

And there was blood on the front doorstep and the ring camera had been yanked off.

Yeah.

And so we were saying this is do something.

This is not okay.

Yeah.

This isn’t something is very wrong here.

Yeah.

Did you guys talk about what possibly could have happened? Like what could have happened? What went down? Did you I think my brother I mean my siblings are so amazing.

My brother, you know, he spent his career in the military and worked in intelligence and a fighter pilot and is brilliant and he saw very clearly right away what this was.

Yeah.

And even on the phone when I called him, he knew.

He knew.

And he said, “I think she’s been kidnapped for ransom.

” And I said, “Yeah, what? Why? What?” And then I mean, it sounds so like how dumb could I be? So interesting to see that the family very early on thought this was a um a kidnapping.

And it makes sense.

I mean, again, you think about if you were in this situation and you knew that your mom could barely walk and that she wouldn’t just disappear and the back doors are open and her phone and everything is left behind.

It makes sense why she would think that.

Savannah also talked about whether or not her fame and wealth could have something to do with this.

And this is something that we have talked about since the beginning and I’ve had people on the show to talk about because if you look historically and statistically at kidnappings and abductions, they are not typically they are almost never random.

Um, and especially when it comes to elderly people and it has always seemed like if if someone was going to kidnap Nancy or abduct Nancy and ask for a ransom, it would probably have something to do with the fact that they knew that Savannah Guthrie was her daughter.

And it seems that Savannah also realizes that.

Uh, and she she talked about that.

But I just I didn’t want to believe.

I just said, “Do you think because of me?” And I said, “I’m sorry, sweetie, but yeah, maybe.

” But I knew that you did.

I hope not.

I mean, we still don’t know.

Honestly, we don’t know anything.

We don’t know anything.

So, I don’t know.

Yeah.

That it’s because she’s my mom and somebody thought, “Oh, that girl, that lady has money.

We can get make a quick buck.

” I mean, that would make sense, but we don’t know.

But yeah, that’s probably which is too much to bear to think that I brought this to her bedside that it’s because of me.

And I just say I’m so sorry, Mommy.

I’m so sorry.

I’m sorry to my sister and my brother and my kids and my nephew and Tommy and my brother-in-law.

Just I’m like so sorry.

I’m so sorry.

If it is me, I’m so sorry.

I’m so again just excruciating to think about the the guilt that Savannah feels and obviously I mean that I think anyone would feel that way.

you know, it’s just terrible.

I mean, she shouldn’t feel that way.

And but um you know, I don’t even know what to say about it.

It’s terrible hearing her cry during that part.

To me, that was really the most emotional part of the interview and just so sad.

Um she also talks about the ransom letters, and this is something that we haven’t talked about in a while.

I think a lot of us pushed these aside.

Remember TMZ? And there were so many different letters and we didn’t know which ones to take seriously and there was never really a clear way to pay a ransom.

Uh and a lot of the experts who I was talking to were saying um look like they didn’t even think any of the letters were real real.

But what’s interesting is Savannah is saying that she thinks um that two of the letters may have in fact been legit.

Uh because there were you remember there were two letters that went to the local TV station that also went to TMZ.

There was information in those letters that uh made it seem like they could be real specifics about things inside the house, some specifics about things outside the house.

And even all this time later, uh it it sounds like Savannah believes that those letters could have been um legitimate.

Listen to what she said.

There are a lot of different notes, I think, that came and I think most of them, it’s my understanding, are not real.

and I didn’t see them, but um you know, a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves.

Yeah.

To a family in pain.

But I believe the two notes that we received that we responded to, I tend to believe those are real.

Really? Mhm.

So, I still have a lot of questions about the ransom letters.

I think in a future episode, I’m going to dive back into the ransom letters and everything we knew.

We know because again, I think a lot of us have moved on from those.

And the fact that Savannah is saying she thinks two of them are legit probably means that law enforcement is also thinking that and telling her that.

So, I’m going to go back to talk to some of my sources again and I’ll do an episode in the coming days about the ransom letters.

Um, remember she offered a million dollar reward.

Uh, so why that never panned out? Again, there is this theory, which I’ve talked about, that this was an abduction for Ransom initially, that something happened to Nancy where she died, and that whoever did this is thinking, I don’t want to be charged with murder because she could still be charged with felony murder.

And I don’t even want the ransom anymore.

We’re just going to pretend like this never happened.

I think that’s a possibility.

Uh, but yeah, I’m going to dive back into the ransom letters because that that was one of the parts of the interview that surprised me that she still believes that two of the ransom letters are um are legit.

That is not something uh that I was expecting her to say, but it’s interesting.

Um, and this last part I want to play is about well, actually there’s two more parts I want to play, but this next part I want to play is about what her family’s going through.

I mean, there have been, and I saw it a ton when I was there.

I mean, there’s been a lot of fingerpointing at members of the Guthrie family and people thinking that they were involved, even though the sheriff outright said that they are no, they are not um suspects.

Uh, and um, I’ve reported about polygraphs being taken.

But, uh, to hear her explain how this has felt for her, that that aspect of this, I felt was again really heartbreaking.

Listen to this.

When you talk about the cruel speculation, the whispers, the innuendo that it was somebody in your family, how did you weather that? It’s unbearable.

And it piles pain upon pain.

There are no words.

There are no words.

I don’t understand.

I’ll never understand.

And no one took better care of my mom than my sister and brother-in-law.

And then one final part of the interview I want to play for you before I get into my discussion with Moren is about they they asked Savannah what she thinks about the investigation, which this was obviously interesting to me considering all of the criticism of the sheriff, the fact that it’s now day 54.

There’s still no resolution.

I wanted to see here what Savannah thought and um I’ll tell you what I think about it, but listen to what she said.

How did your family feel about the way the investigation was conducted? Well, it’s still going.

Yeah.

And yeah, people have worked tirelessly.

Tirelessly.

And we see that.

Mhm.

But we need answers.

We cannot be at peace without knowing.

and someone can do the right thing.

So, I thought it was interesting that she obviously recognized the tireless work of law enforcement and it has been tireless.

Um, and they still have this task force that’s working pretty much around the clock, but you you also heard her say, I mean, the agony of it now being almost two months and she’s clearly I sensed there’s a frustration there, which how could there not be? Um, how could there not be if if you’ve been waiting this long for some kind of resolution? I think we’re all frustrated, let alone if you’re Savannah Guthrie or someone in her family.

So, my heart again goes out to her and the family.

Um, you know, I don’t know.

I think that’s one of the reasons that we’re all so invested in this and I just hope for them that there’s some kind of resolution soon.

Um, will any of this make a difference her talking? Will could this actually cause someone to come forward who feels, you know, guilty or or or sees Savannah’s agony and decides they want to do the right thing? I hope so.

I’m not sure that’s really going to happen, though.

And that’s one of the things that I talked about with uh Moren O’Connell, again, my friend and a retired FBI agent.

Moren, it’s nice to see you.

Um, thank you for for joining me again.

Good to see you as always.

Are you having a good day? I’m having a long day already.

Even though it’s early, but it’s all good.

Yep.

Started super early, but getting it done.

Well, thank you for making the time for me.

I was just commenting your necklace.

I was wondering if it was a uh like an FBI.

It looked like a like almost a sheriff star.

It’s actually the Chicago police badge.

They have a star.

And um this was my sister’s.

And she worked um Chicago police for her whole career.

And then when she passed away, her kids were kind enough to give it to me.

and I just absolutely cherish it.

Well, it looks really nice.

It’s just like I loved my sister Sue.

She was a lunatic, but in the best possible way.

Awesome.

Um, so I wanted to ask you um a couple about some of these new developments with Nancy Guthrie.

First of all, hey guys, you know, I was in Arizona for almost a month and a half.

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They released the one clip um of uh Savannah.

You know, this is her first interview.

Um and uh she it’s just so sad the part where she’s talking about how she’s been waking up in the middle of the night thinking about what her mom woke up to.

What What was your What was your takeaway? That was really hard to watch even though it was only a few minutes long.

Um, and it’s it’s a multiple of 5,000 what I’ve been saying since the beginning, which is I wake up some nights wondering where is Nancy? And I’ve said since the very beginning, as soon the moment I saw those images of that porch pirate, I just thought, oh my god, what she must have awakened to.

It’s unbelievable.

And now that we find out that her family says that she did in fact leave her doors unlocked, at least the back doors.

I suspected maybe something with, you know, owning a dog all all those years.

And I said it to you before on the show that she may have left it open to let the dog out or whatever.

But I really, you know, it goes, you know, at the end of this, let’s go over some more tips for people that are living alone and want to remain safe because I’ve got a whole new list.

I mean, I only gave a couple of things last time you asked me.

Yeah, remind me at the end because I do want to ask you that because a lot of people commented when we did that video that it was really, really helpful.

Um, even some of the stuff that it’s like, oh, everybody must know that, you know, you just forget.

So, I’m I’m going to ask you that at the end.

Um, but yeah, when you’ve worked with like victim, I’m just thinking about Savannah right now.

I mean, obviously she’s there’s a plan for her to get back to work, but when you’ve worked with victims, I mean, when with the un the not knowing, it would be hard enough to lose your mom and know what happened, but the not knowing, like, how do you get through that? I worked with a lot of um victims in um for cases throughout my career, but the ones that were that I really worked closely with were the family members of the victims of the Colonial Parkway murders.

And even though it was a TV show we did, we were there for weeks and weeks.

We spent a great deal of time with the victim’s families and um just talking about what these crimes did to their parents, how it just destroys whole families.

And I don’t mean destroys like everyone starts stops loving each other.

I mean your mother is completely broken.

Your dad when they lose a child, your father the same way.

The marriage is never the same because they can’t seem to connect because this type of thing is so heavy.

It’s like having an elephant sit on your back 247.

It’s so heavy and you can feel it when you interact with these people.

It’s it’s really it’s often times the hardest part of the job is just seeing that and then feeling what it does to you too when you’re involved.

But for Savannah, I mean, it doesn’t take a psychic to see what she’s feeling.

It’s everywhere.

I mean, you could feel it through the screen.

I wish there was something I could do to help her.

So many of us do and I know you do too, Brian.

And one of the one of them would be to find the sons of [ __ ] that did this to her mother and just Yeah.

Yeah.

I know.

I And I think about her job, too.

Um, you know, she has to go through all this in such a public way and then going back to work.

what that’s going to be like for her.

Even even just because it is the Today Show and it’s kind of a light-hearted show.

I mean, they do cooking segments.

It’s It’s not really meant It’s not a depressing show, you know what I mean? It’s it’s an up it’s a morning show.

So, I I just wonder what that’s going to be like for her to have to kind of try to I put this to the side.

There’s a lot of victims that go through this that have to go back working at McDonald’s or working at the DMV where they’re dealing with the public all the time and they’re just on the verge of tears sometimes years for years or you know my cousin who’s a teacher who went through it and her husband who’s a physical therapist who went who’s you know have gone through the loss of a child or some loved one.

It’s hard.

I mean, you know, when my mom passed very suddenly and I had to go back to work, it was not easy, but my mother wasn’t ripped out of her bed in the middle of the night and, you know, God knows what happened to her.

At least we knew where she was.

We were able to go through the motions of saying goodbye to her and honoring her and celebrating her life.

Those rituals are very, very important to moving forward in a healthy way.

This not knowing, as you pointed out a minute ago, is just impossible.

It’s just so hard.

Do you think Savannah speaking out this way now could lead someone to come forward? Do you think it could make a difference? Well, I would like to think so, but and I’m sure there are people out there that know something, but if you’re closely associated with these sons of [ __ ] you have to be pretty cold-hearted yourself in my opinion.

I mean, I don’t know.

I shouldn’t be so jaded, but what in the actual, you know, why have you not come forward already? You’ve got money on the table.

So, even if you don’t have a conscience, you can get $1.

2 million.

Just make a call.

You’re never going to have a life-changing opportunity like this again as long as you live.

Just do what is right.

Just looking at that poor woman.

How can you not want to help her? Unless you don’t have a heart and you don’t have a soul.

The other videos we saw of her were were you they felt a little more scripted.

obviously was early on in in the investigation and you know when I was in Arizona we knew that the FBI was going in to help her actually shoot them.

Um and this is you know a longer form interview that’s coming out over several days.

Do you think she’s able to just talk about what she wants to now or do you think the FBI is still involved in, you know, helping her craft her her answers in an interview like this? I think a lot of what she’s said so far and what what we’ll see that she says uh tomorrow or whenever they whenever they um let this out, but I think a lot of it is from her heart, but I think there will be things in there that the FBI has um strongly suggested that she mention because it’s it’s every time she goes on, you have to know that the offender or offenders are um are are watching unless they’re south of the border because as you know remember when you went down there and no one even heard of her.

It was crazy.

Yeah.

I’m still very curious if Mexico will end up having something to do with this.

And I mean obviously not like the government.

I just mean like someone going back to Mexico.

And I found it just strange how quickly uh authorities said we have no reason to believe um Mex, you know, anyone went to Mexico or that Mexico was involved.

Like how I I still don’t understand why they said that.

How do they know that if they don’t know anything? Well, they probably felt that the people were too comfortable on the front porch that they, you know, that they knew too much.

They had to be nearby.

It the the circuitous route that is that neighborhood is hard to figure out.

Uh it’s the GPS and uh the signal strength is just non-existent.

So, I mean, I guess there were all kinds of things they were putting together and they probably had a good couple of leads at that point, but now those leads have all dried up.

So, now it looks like anything’s in play.

But if you look at her statement from the other day or whenever that was, she said that the people of Tucson are going to be the ones that are um going to provide the information that’s going to solve this investigation.

Yeah.

And in that statement, she also specifically referenced January 11th, which we, you and I have been talking about that for a while.

I knew that the neighbors, the FBI was asking the neighbors about that date, but it had never really come out in an official way.

Like she actually referenced that date in her statement, uh, which is 3 weeks before, um, the abduction.

You know, it’s a weekend.

How how significant do you think it is that she’s now referencing that date in, you know, officially in in a Guthrie statement? Well, because I think at first they weren’t able to definitively say if it was the 11th, but um a lot of my colleagues were saying cuz I my first thought was, hey, they loaded her up in the car and now he came back to the front porch to make sure he didn’t leave anything because it was a bit of a struggle when they were getting out of there.

you know, like did a phone fall out of his pocket or it wouldn’t be the first time that a phone has been left at the scene accidentally or maybe a glove or anything along those lines.

But if you look in the background, it was way too dark.

And it was too dark because it wasn’t the night of the full moon.

That that full moon was one of the most powerful full moons that we’ve had in a very, very long time.

And it was a super moon and it was I mean it lit up.

You could see in the background that you could see the light hitting uh um on the night of uh that she was abducted.

You could see the light hitting the ground behind the offender.

Uh there was the chance in my mind that the pixelation could have had something to do with that or the camera, whatever, because you couldn’t see the eye holes in the mask or there were a lot of there’s a lot of issues with that photo to begin with.

But with it being dark in the background, you know, it was it was um considered by a couple of my colleagues that I really trust that it had to be a different night.

And I was like, well, if it’s a different night, man, that’s that does kind of pull the family out of focus a little bit for me because um uh the family isn’t going to have to um you know, they’re not going to have to do recon missions and all this other kind of stuff on our house.

they know the house unless it you know so that was uh but this this was before the family was even cleared as you well know so I was thinking that just yanked them out of focus a little bit for me or pulled them out of the uh the frame a little bit.

Yeah.

And I’ve heard that even without a time stamp, there’s ways based on the moon and the lighting that the FBI can determine like a like a date even or or or a time frame, which is interesting.

It’s really clear.

Yeah.

But in in a pixelated photo like that, nothing’s really clear.

You can’t even tell, you know, like the backpack looked like gray and it was actually black, I guess, and or whatever.

Who knows? Well, it just more than 50 days, man.

Did you I never thought we’d be this far out.

But then I keep going back to the Corey Richards Richens case.

Everybody thought, you know, she got away with murder and it it wasn’t until a year later that they were able to really put a case together because you only have one chance to charge someone with murder.

That’s it.

So, you got to make it stick and you got to make it right.

Yeah.

So, whoever they have, if they have anybody Just back to the February 11th, I think there was some confusion, too, because we had sources telling us that this other picture was from a previous date.

Uh, but the sheriff was pushing back.

I don’t know if you remember, the sheriff was then saying, “That’s not true.

We have no way of knowing for sure.

” And then I would go back and check with our source and they’re like, “No, it’s definitely from a previous date.

” I’m like, “Why is the sheriff so, you know, being pushing back so hard on this?” And now he’s done another interview just within the last week where he has said, “Oh, actually we do think it’s from a previous date.

” Uh Google told us that it was from the 11th, but then they came back and said, “Well, we can’t be sure, but we still do think it’s from a previous date.

We think it’s an important date.

” I I’m just wondering like did his messaging is that damaging in terms of trying to get this, you know, information out to the public and trying to get them to take a date seriously because here you have the Guthrie family now acknowledging it, but the sheriff for so long was saying like, “No, everybody’s wrong.

We don’t know why people are saying that.

” You’re assuming people are listening to him.

And at this point, I don’t think that’s the case, unfortunately.

And I I really hate to say that because normally this is what we point to.

We point to the press conferences.

Whatever comes out of a press conference is golden.

And it usually proves to be that way in court, you know, when we when we watch trials afterwards.

So I don’t know.

I don’t I I honestly if he said that I didn’t hear him say that because I don’t I don’t pay any I don’t pay attention anymore and that’s not good.

I’ve seen that in some of the comments, too.

People are starting to just not really take what he says seriously, which I mean, technically is still in charge of the investigation.

Yeah.

So, it’s not a not a good thing.

Um, have you been following I mean, there’s a there’s a there’s a recall that’s now starting to take shape where they want to get a special election um to try and throw him out essentially.

and uh and he was previously working in El Paso decades ago and he left and then came on at the Puma County Sheriff’s Office.

This is the sheriff.

Uh but it turns out I never talked about this but a local reporter went back and got the records and he had you know kind of a shady history in El Paso police.

was suspended like eight times, use of force issues, a variety of issues, and never told anybody about that in Puma County allegedly, and even under in a deposition when he was asked, “Have you ever been suspended before?” he said, “No.

” Uh, and so now this has become a real issue and it’s become part of the recall.

And there was even a board of supervisors meeting, which is, you know, the government agency that oversees the body that oversees Pima County, and they voted unanimously to look more into it.

Um it I mean you’re former law enforcement.

Does that concern you that he was asked specifically un you know in a deposition have you ever been suspended and said no when he had in fact been suspended eight times? Yes.

That that disturbs me.

But I have to also call out uh Puma County.

I mean if this guy How long was he in El Paso as a police officer? Just a couple of years, right? He was young.

Yeah.

He was in his 20s and Yeah.

Yeah.

So he was only there a couple of years.

He suspended eight times.

all these different allegations and no one in Puma County even bothered to find that out.

Where’s their due diligence? They can point fingers all they want.

They hired this person.

You when you’re a police officer now, when you’re trying to become a police officer, not only are you taking polygraph exams, they’re looking at your background.

They’re looking at your school records from when you were in grade school.

They interview everyone like a teacher from grade school, teacher from middle school, teacher from high school, teacher from college.

The the the it is so rigid and so strict to become a a police officer anywhere.

That’s how it is now.

In many many cases, these background investigations, even going back then, would would have found all this stuff out.

Puma County’s got some um some culpability here, too.

They can’t point everything at him.

the fact that he lied under oath.

Absolutely.

That is that that’s what’s going to get him fired right now.

That’s going to get him fired.

He’s he’s gone in my opinion.

He’s going to be gone.

But they’ve there’s no way that this was a secret that this guy had all these issues, all these problems in his jacket, as we call it, his file or whatever.

This guy was well known to have all kinds of issues.

Anyone that’s suspended that much is just a problem child, which is why he had to leave.

H how did they not see any of that? It’s dereliction on their part also.

And the union did another vote uh of no confidence which they’ve done before but this one was recent like since the Nancy Guthrie investigation.

There’s 200 deputies in the union and it was unanimous.

So that was unanimous with the deputies in the union.

Okay.

Yeah.

Which not the ones that aren’t union.

Okay.

That’s correct.

But I the majority it’s my understanding the majority of the deputies are are in the uh the union.

Um I mean okay does that say should we be disturbed by that? Yeah I mean that’s that’s another uh huge problem a huge hurdle for him.

Uh it’s going to be really hard you know it’s it’s hard for a person to lead in a situation like that.

And in a situation like that, I would expect the deputies uh like I said before, they’re working arm-in- arm, handinhand with the FBI, and they’re probably they may be not telling the sheriff everything because of situations like this.

If he’s a micromanager, which I you know, that’s what I’m hearing that he’s a total micromanager.

Nobody likes working for a micromanager, especially in a big case.

Big cases are hard enough as it is.

The last thing you need is some micromanager breathing down your neck.

Yeah.

But I don’t think he’s gonna survive this.

This is what in in the business, this is what we call unservivable.

He is elected though.

I mean, they can’t just fire him.

I mean, there’s there has to be a huge process here.

Um, you know what I mean? It’s not like a with a police chief where it’s like, you know, the city council.

But lying under oath that comes back to get you, huh? Yeah.

That’s going to be that’s going to be real hard.

I was just thinking I’ve had jobs before where they’ll send out these anonymous surveys and you can kind of like talk about how happy you are and what you think about your boss and I’m always like nervous to really like I never trust those things.

I’m always like they’re I don’t either.

They’re going to know who said what, you know? But I’m just thinking about these deputies.

I mean for all of them to vote no confidence and then you have to work there and this is your boss and you probably have to talk to the man.

It must be kind of awkward.

Yeah, it it is awkward.

We used to have in the bureau they would have they would say that these are anonymous surveys but how long have you been in the bureau? What division do you work in? All this other stuff.

We’re like you know if if you say you’re in 22 years and you’re in the Los Angeles division there aren’t that many of us that have been in the Los you know that have 22 years in it’s easy to figure out is what I’m saying.

So we were always very cautious too.

But then the inspectors would come face to face and uh these inspectors one time it was one of the few um bosses I just couldn’t I just couldn’t I couldn’t take this person but they said um you have to be able to say something.

I said I’m not saying anything.

I’m just not going to Moren I cannot fill this out without you know you have to tell me something.

And I was like okay he’s a clean shaven.

I mean, that’s all I can think to say.

And he’s like, “You’re not making it easy on me.

” But so they tried to get that from us.

It just I you know, when early on in my career, it didn’t seem to make much difference.

But I have to say that as time went on, they apparently did start listening to people and it did make a difference.

So that’s always good.

And I I really started seeing these these um things shape opinions later on in my career, which I think is good.

And it looks like that may be what’s happening here.

But he’s got he’s got all kinds of hurdles, all kinds of problems, all kinds of issues, all coming together at one time.

It’s a storm and he may not make it out.

At the end of the day though, do you think even if he’s got all these issues and you know it seems pretty clear that he does now with some of the the stuff that we’re seeing, do you think it’s impacted the Nancy Guthrie investigation? I mean, do you think we’d still be here day 50 plus um if you know if he didn’t have these issues? Um, I I think the initial issue with the crime scene is going to go down as a problem.

And I’m not throwing any shade at crime scene texts from the Puma County Sheriff’s Office.

These people have to do extraordinary work in terrible conditions with very few people doing the actual work.

And it’s it’s not easy work.

It’s really it’s um it’s mind work.

It’s um you know, you have to be theorizing about things.

You have to make sure you’re doing the right thing, the right technique at the right time.

And sometimes there’s two or three techniques that you can apply to to get DNA, let’s say, for example.

But you have to put them in order so that one doesn’t jeopardize the next and the and or or the or the third one, if that makes any sense.

Um, so I think the crime scene thing at the beginning is going to end up being a problem for the investigation and it’s going to be a problem uh for the prosecution if in fact we ever if it ever comes to that.

I don’t know.

I was listening to one of and he won’t I’ve tried to get interviews with him lately and haven’t had much luck.

It seems like he he does them with NBC and I’m guessing that’s because of sort of the Savannah uh connection.

Um, and they haven’t really asked him anything from what I can tell about some of these issues that he’s dealing with.

Uh, but in one of the interviews and he did a radio interview and I I listened to them all really carefully because he says little things sometimes that it almost feels like kind of slip out, you know? So, I’m trying to like see if there’s anything new.

And in one of the more recent ones, he said something about the DNA and he still had hope in the DNA and that there were two labs working on it, which I thought was interesting because I remembered that it just went to the Florida lab.

So, it made me wonder, is there now a second lab? Because, you remember, they were having issues.

The DNA was So, maybe they’ve sent it to another lab that, you know, specializes more in the genetic genealogy, something like that.

But that stood out to me.

And that he still brought the DNA up.

So, you know, well, they could have done something else when they put those tent that tent up around the front door.

Yeah.

They could have done some type of DNA on the um um clamp that holds up the Nest camera.

They could have done tape lifting on that front mat.

They could have, you know, done fingerprints or something, some kind of swabbing on the door knob, door handle.

Um, who knows? Or the I I don’t know.

Were you guys able to get in the backyard when people went in the backyard? Like if you had the So, they could have done something with the back door also, which now we know it was the back door that uh was the point of entry, right? Is that correct? There’s some reporting out there.

Yeah, I haven’t been able to confirm that, but I’ve heard others report it.

It wouldn’t it wouldn’t surprise me based on what you and I have talked about and when you talked about the security door in the front and Yeah, there’s no getting through that without leaving a mark.

Yeah, you can’t.

And if it’s in fact true, and again, I don’t have this reporting, but I’ve heard other people talk about it that she’s left her doors open.

I mean, just being in that neighborhood for so long, working there, you know, reporting there and talking to neighbors, I think a lot of people left their doors open.

I mean, it’s a quiet and she’s lived there since the 70s.

I I know nobody should do that, but that doesn’t really Yeah, but can’t you hear the scary music in the background? Oh my god.

When people I I know.

I know.

But it’s like, you know, sometimes it’s the simplest solution that is the difference between being safe and something like this.

Yeah.

One other thing I was looking at is all the Airbnbs in the neighborhood and there’s there’s quite a few of them in short-term rentals.

Um, do you think the FBI is looking into that? Like Yes, absolutely.

Can they just go to Airbnb and try to get a list of everybody who stayed at these places or Yeah, they’ll subpoena.

Yeah, they’ll subpoena them for sure.

And they’ll find these people out.

I’m sure they’ve been interviewed or Yeah, I’m sure they’ve been interviewed by now.

Absolutely.

anyone that stayed there during that time period, and I would I would suggest they would probably go back a couple months, especially in that house right around the corner.

Yeah.

And the other thing I was thinking about cuz the neighbors have been texting me.

They’re like, “Get ready.

There was a really hot week last week.

” And then, you know, summers there are like everyone’s like, “It’s just miserable.

” I mean, it’s like 115 degrees weeks at a time.

And uh a lot of people leave like people are season you know they this is like a second home for them and they get out of there in the summer.

Does some Did Nancy traditionally go away? No, I don’t think so.

I think she was there.

Wow.

I think she from what I mean I’ve never heard that she had like a second house or anything like that.

Um but a lot of people do leave.

Um maybe she would go typically and stay with Savannah for a month or two or her son.

Maybe.

Yeah, maybe.

Um, I would wonder though now that she was, you know, getting older and had the mobility issues.

I don’t know if it was more difficult for her to travel.

But I’m just wondering like when you’re an investigator, is it an issue? Like I even think back to Idaho, you know, they all the students left at one point and it was like how are they going to talk to all these students because they’ve all just left town.

Is is it a similar situation here if if a lot of the neighbors leave and people leave? Well, they’ve all been interviewed and they the the investigators have contact information for all these people and so they can call them if they need to.

Um the difference with Idaho is they were leaving like right after the murders happened.

So it was like a you know scatter city.

But uh law enforcement is very accustomed to reaching out to whether it be the FBI or other police off police departments reaching out to other entities, agencies, municipal law enforcement off um agencies and asking them to go to make contact with an individual and ask the following questions.

So you send them a couple of reports, you send them a series of questions, and they’ll go do the interview for you.

Um and then they write it up and get it back to you.

So they they’ll use other agencies to help them out.

If it’s a really big interview, we’ll send people like we’ll send agents to go do the actual interview.

And uh Pima County Sheriffs will probably themselves go out and ask questions.

If it’s a situation that’s got some depth and some breth and you need to know a lot of these um ins and outs and the players involved and stuff like that, then it’s good to have one of the uh uh team investigators head out there and conduct the investigation themselves.

What about you remember the two raids? There was the one in Rio Rico which was near Mexico and then there was the two miles.

So we talked to the lawyer for Carlos who was the Rio Rico just yesterday.

the Rio Rico uh you know p I don’t want to say person of interested the person who was detained uh and he’s now gotten his phone back.

The lawyer still hasn’t seen the search warrant so still doesn’t really have any information about what led to all that but they did return the phone.

Uh and I’m not sure interesting what why stand what what what’s interesting that they didn’t get the a copy of the warrant.

Yeah.

No, they still it’s still sealed.

So they he still doesn’t know.

Oh, it’s still sealed.

You’re right.

I I forgot that one was sealed.

Yes.

Right.

still doesn’t know why his client was why this all went down the way it did and and the same thing with the other guy from two miles away with the other big raid that I was at.

Um do you think Well, I think it’s fairly obvious that they were some of the cars that were being seen or driving around the neighborhood and and possibly stopping nearby, you know, and their their thought might have been, oh, they stopped their car two doors down probably to get out and walk the perimeter and then get back in their car.

you know, you’re you’re thinking like that and there weren’t really any other hits on the vehicles.

So, they when you have an absence of something like we don’t have a vehicle that we’re currently looking for, you have to look for the other tertiary vehicles that may have been in the neighborhood and may have parked a block away, even if it’s for 20 minutes or 15, just to maybe walk the perimeter of the location.

So, you know, you start looking at at things in in that kind of a light.

And that’s why I think they felt that um these people may have been involved.

And when you have someone that’s 84 and their life is threatened by the lack of medication and their age and and a pacemaker and things like that, it it ramps things up um for uh for the judge when you go in to get a warrant signed.

Do you think though at this point we can kind of move on from those two? Yeah.

Yeah, I think so too.

I know some people say no, but you know, at this point, Bryant, this could this thing could break open in in a number of different ways.

And one more of those guys may be involved, like that guy with the uh Range Rover, because that car, I believe, was purchased like the week or two before Nancy was taken.

And I think that car was something like $17,400 or something, but I’m not so sure.

I’m not so sure all these guys aren’t involved.

Actually, I shouldn’t say that because I don’t know enough about it.

I don’t know about the information that led them to these guys.

Yeah.

If they’re just building a case against them, yeah, they could still be tied to this in some way, shape, or form.

I know there was some other kind of loose association between the mom and was it Mrs.

Guthrie or or Yeah, the mom said that she like I think was a fan and ran into her in the grocery store like years ago.

Yeah.

When she was with Savannah.

Um I guess I at some point it’s not that weird though.

No, it wasn’t that.

Well, I just think at some point the sheriff or someone is going to have to say, you know, those two are cleared because it it does seem kind of unfair to them if if if this really was just a mistake or not a mistake, but you know, they looked they did the search warrant.

Okay, these aren’t the guys to just leave it.

And that’s what their lawyers say.

I mean, it’s due diligence.

You’ve got to do it.

But don’t you think it I mean to leave it open-ended does seem kind of if that was me I’d be like can you just say I didn’t do it? I mean but I guess they’re not going to do that right now.

No, they’re not.

So that tell you know so that’s why I I changed my tune and I’m going to stick with we shall see on those three.

Okay.

All three of them.

Now, didn’t the guy What was the connection between the guy in the Range Rover and um the other the the house with the mom and son? The house was the mom she he just lives with the mom and it was the mom was home when they went and raided the house, right? But are they connected at all with that guy with the Range Rover? Yeah, that he that’s his Range Rover.

That’s the son’s Range Rover.

So, um Yep.

Okay.

You know, um and just Well, the jury’s still out on that one then.

Yeah, we’ll see.

Yeah, we’ll have to Yeah, I’ll keep following up with their lawyers and stuff just cuz it’ be very interesting to see the search warrant and what you know because obviously a federal judge signed off on it.

So So there’s probable cause for sure.

Yeah.

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