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Uh, it is now day 36 in the search for Nancy Guthrie.

Uh, today is Sunday.

I’m actually walking down uh to NY’s house right now.

They still have those parking rules [clears throat] in effect where we are not allowed to park on the street, but luckily again, some of the neighbors are super nice and letting us park in their driveway.

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Uh, in this episode though, I’m getting into a theory that I’ve thought about for a while, but I haven’t really dived into, which is sort of this elder abuse theory.

And with NY’s case, I know a lot of people think it’s just gotten so much attention because of Savannah Guthrie, her daughter, who’s obviously famous, which is obviously partly true.

But I also think it’s gotten a lot of attention because a lot of us with parents who are getting older, this is really like our worst nightmare.

And you think about all the people who come in and out of their homes, whether it be like healthcare workers or helpers and, you know, it’s, you know, it’s like a revolving door in some ways, especially as parents get older.

Um, and could that have something to do with this case? Could this be a case of elder abuse? Could this be someone who was inside NY’s home um working in the house in some capacity? Uh, how likely is that? Is that something that authorities are looking into? I’m going to dive into it in this episode of Brian Anthony Investigates.

I’m joined by Marino Connell and Jim Clemente, both retired FBI special agents uh and hosts of uh Best Case, Worst Case, the podcast.

It’s nice to see you both.

Nice to see you.

I’m still here in uh in Arizona outside NY’s house.

And I was thinking today about all of the um different theories that we’ve all discussed and and one thing that keeps popping into my mind is is like elder abuse and I and and when you have older parents and I think a lot of us can relate to this, you know, there’s a lot of people coming in and out of the house.

Um whether it be healthcare workers or people helping clean up or helping, you know, your loved one shower, that kind of thing.

Um Jim, do you think that’s something we should be considering in this case? Absolutely.

I think every single person who had any even a tangential uh relationship to Nancy Guthrie, anybody who worked on the house, on the yard, on the pool, anybody who worked in the house, uh repairing things, delivering things, um even driving her in an Uber or Lift, all of those people should be looked at because that could have been the nexus that allowed them to understand that she was living alone and that she was vulnerb vulnerable.

Meen, do you agree? I do agree.

And I also think that from what we know about Nancy, she was just such a nice and kind and wonderful woman.

And I’ve got a neighbor here that I just love, like a second mom.

She too is 84.

And ever since this whole thing kicked off, you know, I’m on her like white on rice.

And um I just want her to be 10 times more um careful about everything.

But the bottom line is they tell everyone anything someone asks them.

If someone asked her, walked up to her door and said, “Can I come in and use your restroom?” A stranger, she would say yes.

You know, I I think it’s I think when you get old, you get one of two ways.

Either really ornery like I’m probably going to be or like Nancy or my neighbor Marca here.

Gonna be gonna be.

Yeah, I may have a head start on it a little bit.

Yeah, it’s all right, Jack.

[laughter] Um, yeah.

And even though, you know, they’ve made such a point to say that Nancy was cognitively totally with it and she had some physical ailments, but but still like even with I think about my grandparents when they were older, they were still cognitively with it.

But sometimes they can just fall victim for things more easily.

Absolutely.

I mean, if you look at just what we’re having to deal with today in terms of AI, AI sort of takes over.

You can you can create any image.

uh you could take a picture and you can make it into a video saying anything and it looks very realistic.

Those things are going to get better and they’re going to be used to trick people and to make people more vulnerable.

The generation before us had had had to deal with the internet coming out and dealing with remember in the beginning of of email where all those sort of email spam lists and then fraud came through that and spamware and all sorts of stuff that that people had to learn to deal with.

Well, as you get older, it’s harder to learn new tricks.

It’s harder to keep up with all those changes and all the ways in which people can take advantage of you.

So many elderly people are getting calls from their bank or calls from social security or calls from the IRS and they think, “Oh, oh my, I I have to take care of this.

” Unfortunately, they’re just being scammed.

And there are people who take it further, who don’t just want to scam older people, they want to take advantage of them in a number of other ways.

And it’s it’s disgusting because they are so vulnerable.

And and there’s no way to protect them unless you’re with them 24/7.

Yeah.

And I think that’s I’ve seen in a lot of the comments even in my videos it’s something that people struggle with like you know you want to give your parents their independence still and I’m sure maybe this is what the guts are going through too you know she probably want to stay in her house she’s 84 but then you probably worry a lot too um as people come and go Moren um and another thing is with like when you have and I don’t know if uh Nancy had home health care but you know she had mobility issues it doesn’t seem like she was driving because she took the Uber but you have sometimes different people coming in and out or someone will call in sick and the agency will send someone different, that kind of thing.

Do you think Moren it’ll be hard to I will the FBI be able to track like everyone who was in and out of the house? Yep, they will.

But before we get there, let’s slow down a little bit because I think the reason she wasn’t driving at night is probably because she doesn’t drive in the dark.

And she’s a very independent woman.

Um, much like Savannah, our father died when I was the same age Savannah was when her dad died.

And our mom became the mom and the dad.

That makes you a very independent person.

You all of a sudden have to do everything that you did as a couple as well as parent children, which is obviously very hard, especially teenagers.

And so, she’s an independent woman that wants to remain independent.

And that’s how I want to be.

I don’t want to go into a home.

And my mother said that to her dying day.

I do not want to go into any kind of assisted living or anything at all.

And she passed away in her sleep, which was a blessing.

Very hard for all of us.

But so I think I think Nancy was independent.

Obviously, she was very with it.

She didn’t want to drive at night because a lot of people don’t like driving at night and they don’t want to pull into their driveway home alone, come into an empty, dark house, but they’re fine during the day.

So, it could have just been something like that.

What were you going to say, Jim? No, I just I I think she also had hearing issues and Yes.

pretty powerful hearing aids that which she probably removed at night, which makes her even more vulnerable.

Yeah.

There was a few people I’ve talked to out here who are being kind of judgmental like why would they let her Uber? Like, who lets their 84 year mom old mom Uber? It didn’t seem that weird to me.

And and also like like you were saying, Moren, you know, if your parent wants to be independent and, you know, has been your parent for I mean, you you can only do so much.

I mean, you kind of have to let them do their thing at some point and just hope that everything’s going to be okay.

And in the TV show she did with Savannah, she had a margarita and Savannah even said, “Don’t drink the whole thing, Mom.

” Or whatever.

Cuz she was tiny.

So maybe she likes going over to Annie’s house and playing games and having a margarita.

And that way she couldn’t drive home either.

What would the motivation be, Jim, for someone who worked in the house to come back this way? Well, the thing is it’s it [clears throat] doesn’t create the motivation.

What the motivation was there and what it did was it gave them the information that they now knew this was an opportunity to take advantage of.

So [clears throat] there are we we’ve discussed this before.

There are a number of different potential motivations Obviously the first one and and if those letters are authentic uh the highest priority one is is money kidnapping but there is also revenge there’s also personal cause there’s sexual and and we really need to add to that the the opportunity that somebody might have found um by picking her up in an Uber or lift or by delivering to the house because then they may have drawn the connection between her and Savannah and they may have been fixated on Savannah and this may be the way they thought they could get Savannah’s attention.

And in fact, I believe that’s what they did.

They got Savannah’s attention.

They wanted the attention of Savannah and and the world because that’s where those letters went to the media so they could be shared with the world.

And that’s a like I think I’ve told you before, that’s a very unusual thing in a kidnapping case.

So it means that maybe one of the other motives actually was driving this.

And I mean, I don’t want to get too deep into this cuz it’s just kind of disturbing and gross, but when you say sexual, I mean, is when I think of her being an 84 year old woman, I mean, is that a thing? Are there criminals out there that like that’s what they target? Yes, it is.

It is true.

And usually they’re they’re [clears throat] in their 20s.

Uh very impulsive.

Uh it’s not something that uh that appears to be the case in this case.

I don’t believe that the guy that was at the front door was in his 20s.

And I don’t believe that it was impulsive because he spent so much time planning it and doing things to at least attempt to hide his identity and keep his DNA from from being left at the scene.

I think he failed at that and and I’m hoping that is how this case is going to be solved pretty quickly.

Moren, uh you’ve said to me before that you think the guy was on drugs like or was a druggie or something.

I mean, do you still think that he looked to me like he was high? Like he smoked a blunt before he got there to take the edge off or had some tequila or something because he just looked so relaxed.

He looked so calm.

And if you think of um ripping the camera out of the mount or off the off the door uh frame, you know, most people when they do that, they make a they make a a face like this.

This guy’s mouth was so relaxed like this like he was taking a nap.

He did not his eyes were not you know like when you’re when you have that task face you’re you’re even if you’re doing something easy like opening opening this you’ll see people go you know they just make even micro expressions.

There was none of that.

It was just complete relaxation almost like he was high or he you know because let’s say let’s say the guy at the front door is getting paid to do this.

He he may not want to do it but he wants the money so he’s like all right I’ll do it but I’m just going to smoke some weed and calm myself down a little bit before I get up in there.

If he was high though do you think you would have made more mistakes? Well I think it explains the stupid foliage move.

Yeah.

I mean, it’s like, “Oh, I got a good idea, you know, let’s try this.

” Do you agree, Jim? Yeah, I think I think that’s a reasonable assessment.

Um, generally, I would think that somebody in that position should be experiencing a fairly high level of stress and um that didn’t seem to be exhibited at that time.

Yeah, he just looked sort of like, you’re right.

You’re not the first person who said that, Moren.

Um, I’ve heard from some of the I think I was the first person, Brian.

Actually, I’m sorry.

I I actually meant to say you’re not the only person who said that.

Yeah, there’s some people in the neighborhood that I’ve talked to that I don’t know where they come up with this theory, but they’re like they think that it’s someone from this neighborhood who’s like someone’s adult kid, like that gets I guess there’s like people who live with their parents around here and get high all the time and are walking around the neighborhood.

Um, and that’s kind of a theory that I’ve heard a couple times.

Well, it it wouldn’t be the first time a local a local adult child did something like this, but did committed a burglary or a robbery or something like that.

But actually taking an 84 year old out of the house takes this to a level that is just in a different world.

And I think the gun as well adds adds a level of seriousness that that just doesn’t seem like, you know, a neighborhood kid fooling around.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

But Jim, what do you think about that? He wore the gun.

Yeah, that’s what I was going to ask you.

What do you think about that? The phallic nature of that.

Well, I mean, maybe he thought he was a tough guy by doing it.

I don’t know.

But the fact is that it is the most ridiculous place for it to be.

Unless he he planned on it scaring someone to the point where he wouldn’t have to, you know, use any kind of force.

And it’s right there.

It’s obvious and therefore maybe he could keep his hands free and still threaten the person.

Yeah.

You can also have a nice solid holster on your hip and have, you know, you don’t have to use your hands all the how your hands are free anyways.

But it’s goofy.

It’s so strange.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That’s one thing that stood out from the very beginning.

Like that just made it seem amateur.

Everyone has been saying been highlighting the the holster and the gun doesn’t even fit the holster, right? No.

No.

That’s for a long barreled um revolver.

Um Jim, what do you think about um the fact that there’s blood on the front steps, but someone or Brian talked earlier about the same type of blood pattern on the in interior? Isn’t that right, Brian? Was that you that reported that? No.

So, I haven’t reported that cuz I don’t know about I haven’t been able to confirm blood inside the house.

I have heard other people talk about it though that it was a similar they believe it was a similar blood pattern like kind of like droplets as what was on the outside.

Yeah.

Well, I mean that just it tells me again that that she was probably alive when when she left the house.

And I don’t I you know if if you saw a dragging pattern, smear patterns on the floor, uh that would be another another issue.

But that’s just not what we’ve we haven’t heard anything about that.

But this blood spatter pattern that that appears to be from droplets that that tells me somebody was walking and bleeding, not not mortally wounded.

What do you both make of uh and this just came out yesterday and I actually talked to the neighbors that the FBI has been going to their houses and asking them about an internet disruption.

Did Did you experience an internet disruption around the same time that Nancy went missing? It’s like around 2 a.

m.

February 1st.

And there’s actually some neighbors that live behind NY’s house who told me that they FBI came to their house and they were showing them that their two Ring cameras on the back side of the house which are closest to NY’s actually became disabled at that time, which um they said is unusual.

It’s and and the ones in the front still worked, but the ones in the back didn’t.

And there’s been sort of Yeah.

What would you say, Moren? And the cables were not cut from from your reporting from what I saw.

Correct.

And I think and those cables I think were going up to like a solar panel on the roof just to keep it powered, but it’s still a Wi-Fi device.

You know what I mean? It’s connected through Wi-Fi to to transmit the video.

Um, and and in the video of the suspect in the front in the picture, you can see a little antenna sticking out and some have thought, is that some kind of like signal interference device? Do you think that’s a possibility? Sure, it’s a possibility.

Uh, you know, I would say you could go get one at Best Buy, uh, or maybe even Walmart, uh, or Amazon.

Yeah, Amazon would be even easier, but um, you know, Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, maybe he maybe he did that, but I don’t know.

It just seems the the the ways in which he bungled it.

Um, I don’t know.

That seems a little more sophisticated than what I’d expect from him.

Yeah, that’s kind of what I was thinking, Moren.

Like it it Y I don’t know.

But although the fact that they’re asking about an internet internet disruption, they they must there’s something that they’re looking into.

It seems like somebody Yeah, somebody’s probably reported it to them and so they’re following up with the other neighbors and it is possible.

It It’s But that’s military grade.

If you’re taking out a neighborhood, you’re talking a militaryra um signal jammer, which is not easy to get your h hands on.

Know that he took out the neighborhood just I mean, if it’s if only one person reported it, then maybe it’s just that one neighbor in the backyard.

And you know, obviously at some point he was in the backyard, so maybe it got range at that time.

It’s It’s pretty far away, like 100 yards, right? It is far, but there’s like this there’s this desert area behind NY’s house, kind of like a rectangle.

And um they live on the same like patch of desert as Nancy.

So, one thing I thought of is if they if if this guy came in through the desert in the back, maybe if he had that thing on and as he was passing the houses, it was interfering.

You know what I mean? Like even though it can’t reach that far, maybe it just did that while he was passing by.

because you’re going to have it on while you approach the lo because the location because um you know you don’t want the cameras to capture you.

But Brian, you’ve been saying since day one that that just the the Wi-Fi on NY’s block is terrible.

I mean, you’re lucky if you get one bar.

So when when I first heard the reporting that there may be more than one house that doesn’t have that their Wi-Fi was out or whatever, I’m like, it’s just one of those dead zones.

It’s like it’s like near you, Jim, where you know, you just pull out a little bit and you have no connectivity to anything.

So, I don’t know.

I’m I’m not buying into it yet.

I’m not buying into it because that guy on the front porch was so unsophisticated.

However, I will say that if there was a jammer involved, there for sure are at least two offenders.

Why is that? Because the level of sophistication.

I just don’t see it in front porch phallic bandit.

I just don’t see it.

Well, the other strange thing is if it was a jammer, then why did NY’s camera in the front still record those images? Um although I don’t know, do they like turn it off? I It’s weird.

The the whole the the thing is it’s it’s a strange situation.

And also the other thing is the neighbors whose cameras went out on the back and I’ve kind of gotten to know them.

They’re nice people.

I believe them, you know, they’re they’re trustworthy.

They were telling me at the same time that those cameras went out, which they didn’t realize they went out until late until later when they went back and looked at the log, but at that same time around 2:00 a.

m.

, their dog woke them up, which is ex very unusual.

Like, you know, you know, when you have a dog, you know, these things like my dog never wakes me up in the middle of the night, like unless there’s like a major, you know, sickness or bathroom issue or whatever, but their dog never wakes up in the middle of the night.

Woke them up at that that same time that the cameras went out to go outside.

So, they go outside with the dog and they actually showed me the video.

They didn’t want me to like share the video on on TV or anything cuz they don’t really want to be identified, but they showed me the video and the dog just looks in the direction of NY’s house like with the ears up and is just staring and they were want they were wondering like is that a frequency, you know, like you know how dogs can hear things like if if it was a signal jammer or maybe I don’t know.

What do you make of that? Uh dogs have their sense of smell is 10,000 times more discerning than our sense of sight.

So I I am not surprised.

Uh I know my dog will start barking when somebody is a block away.

I don’t know how he could in inside the house, not by a window, and somehow he knows that somebody’s coming up the street.

It’s they just have better senses than we do.

And I’m not surprised at all that they that that dog was barking and that the dog was looking at NY’s house because there was something going on there.

That’s for sure.

I would put a lot of weight on that because especially knowing their dog like that.

If it was a dog that’s up all the time, like you said, that would be a different story.

But if the dog doesn’t get up in the middle of the night and that dog is up looking in that direction with their ears up, I would definitely pay attention to that.

Yeah.

And it’s so I mean, you live in the desert, Jim.

It’s so quiet out here, especially like at 2 a.

m.

I’m sure.

I mean, people drive by now because like everybody’s coming to look at Nancy Guthri’s house and they leave flowers, but normally, you know, such a quiet neighborhood.

And um I would just imagine that I don’t know, maybe the dogs smell things.

They probably can sense anything that’s unusual cuz it’s normally there’s not much going on, you know? Yeah, they can smell and they can hear better than we can.

And I think yeah, that’s it’s just unfortunate that it didn’t raise an alarm to the level that that somebody called 911.

Right.

Right.

Which I get why.

I mean, that wouldn’t probably make me call 911.

But looking back, looking at the video of the dog just staring, it was really kind of weird that that was right around the same time that their cameras went out and that Nancy disappeared.

You know what time was that that the dog did that? It was around 2 a.

m.

Yeah.

Right there.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah.

So, if it’s not a a jammer, do you think it could be a walkie-talkie? And if so, what does that say about the level of sophistication of this person? Well, it it could be either.

Um, the a jammer and a walkie-talkie on the outside probably look almost exactly the same.

I mean, there’s certainly iterations of it that that look exactly the same.

It could also have been a police scanner for him to monitor whether or not there’s any police activity in the neighborhood, whether the police were getting called, whether he tripped a silent alarm, all those kinds of things could have happened.

And that that might be something that he picked up from, you know, watching a crime show on TV or something.

But it doesn’t it doesn’t to in my mind it doesn’t add to his level of criminal and and forensic sophistication because of the gaping holes in in his plan.

I mean grabbing that bunch of brush to try to cover the camera.

I mean it it was such an amateur move.

It it really undid all of his preparation and planning because it just showed that he had no idea what to do with a camera.

I’m certain he could have found out with a tiny little bit of research he could have found out how to address that issue, but he didn’t do that.

And so it just tells me that he was focused on something else.

And there’s no question that that that raised the chances of him getting caught dramatically.

And I think the walkie-talkie thing also, if it if it was in fact a walkie-talkie, I think that’s indicative of there being more than one person and probably the driver of the vehicle had a walkie-talkie as well.

Um, they’ve got a lot of really good ones on the market and they they work for a pretty good distance.

Um, and with that full moon, I could see them coming down the street, maybe without even their headlights on, and then turning into NY’s driveway and, uh, he could have just said, “Hey, I’m going to click three times when I need you to come in the back door or whatever, and we’re going to carry her out the front or something.

” But, um, you know, the walkie-talkie tells me he was probably not.

It just that’s just what it telegraphs to me.

And I and I could be wrong.

Yeah.

If it’s a walkie-talkie that you would only use that if you wanted to talk to somebody else.

If it’s a police scanner, he could be an individual.

If it’s a it’s some kind of jammer, he could be an individual.

Um I just to me there’s no there’s just simply no, it’s not that I’d rule out a second person or more people.

It’s that I don’t see any evidence of it.

And and until there is actual evidence of it, it yeah, this is it is it’s just speculation because we just don’t know what it was in his pocket and we just don’t know what the situation was with the vehicle.

Jim, when I think of the evidence of her um walking out of there, I doubt that she walked out because there were no voids in there was a so so the blood, let’s say the pattern of the blood is concentrated here, but it the the sphere is this big.

It’s round.

You would have a void here from one foot or from another foot or from something there.

There there don’t appear to be any voids, which is another reason why that that mat out in front would have been so important to take for 27 reasons, but there didn’t appear to be any voids.

So for me, it was in my mind she’s wrapped up in something and they’re carrying her out.

And that’s when when when that’s why the the the shape of the um blood droplets, they’re all round and the sphere is intact.

Yeah.

Well, I mean that means it it went straight down.

It wasn’t moving at speed.

And I I don’t know.

I think if she was wrapped up that you wouldn’t see that.

I mean, if she was wrapped up and she’s still spattering blood, then she wasn’t wrapped up.

Well, right.

My [clears throat] thought my thought was she was wrapped up a little bit like a burrito.

And when they got to the front door, they had to back up to open that big huge oak door.

Then they had to open the the um uh the gated the gate door, the row iron wand.

And then as they’re trying to get down and get maybe her head just turned and that’s when the the blood happened.

I don’t know.

I I’m there there there, you know, I’ve walked through it a million different ways and this is what we call um Brian, this is what we call what I call dropping the dominoes.

when you when Jim says something or and or a group of any investigators will say, “Well, how could this have happened this way? How about that way?” And this is just how we work.

We just walk through it and challenge each other all the time.

Yeah.

I I just I mean, she was a small woman and and I just she may have put up a fight, which is how she got injured, which is why there’s blood.

But um I don’t think that that guy that came to the front door would have any problem carrying her out alone.

She did weigh 150 lbs.

Yeah.

But that’s not light.

I mean, but I I think also she could have um you know, the altercation quote unquote could have happened um if she obviously had her hearing aids out and they were giving her commands and she couldn’t respond because she didn’t know what they were saying, you know.

Right.

Right.

Maybe she couldn’t hear.

Well, yeah, I thought about that, too.

So sad it is.

I mean, uh, you know, and it could also have been a blitz attack while she was sleeping.

So, Right.

And that, you know, that would have caused the same thing.

But again, if she was unconscious, if she was not capable of walking out on her own, I think she would have been wrapped up completely.

It’s very simple to to just grab the comforter off the bed and and you you got her completely covered.

But I don’t think that happened.

I think she was threatened with that weapon and although she resisted at some point, that weapon overcame that resistance and and she was walked out.

But that’s my that’s my assessment.

But that that doesn’t make it right.

Um, where do you both think things go from here? I mean, we’re now, you know, 30 plus days.

Um, yeah, the fact that they’re talking to the neighbors again, I don’t really know what that mean.

I mean, is that a good sign? Is that Are they just back at the beginning again with nothing? Like, what what’s your sense? Listen, um, there have been I know Moren, you’ve experienced this as well as I during investigations many, many times.

The offender has been talked to earlier in the investigation, but they just didn’t have enough information, enough probable cause, enough enough to point in that person’s direction.

But later on, as you go through this, you you I mean, a good detective work is rehashing everything, going through everything over and over again until you get the right answers.

But in this case, I believe they’re also probably developing forensic genetic genealogy um suspects and following people and uh hopefully confirming DNA from those people.

Um, and I think they’re also definitely doing as much electronic uh analysis as possible.

I mean, cell phones and and door cams and traffic cams and license plate readers and there will be literally thousands and thousands of records to go through.

So, it takes time, but it’s so daunting.

It’s not it’s not a cold case until they’ve done all of that and and gotten nowhere.

So, let’s hope that in the process of doing all that that they actually are able to solve this case.

And let’s say uh Jim and I were working this, this was our case and we were working it and we had a feeling about one person.

We’re not just going to go to that one person’s house.

We’re going to figure out a way to go to 30 people’s houses so we don’t, you know, raise any red flags or raise suspicions or whatever.

And we’ll talk to all those 30 people.

We’ll talk to all their neighbors and their relatives and their co-workers.

It’s a lot of work, but you do it because you don’t want to let one person know.

There are there I’m sure they have talked to people and we have said this a number of times in the behavioral analysis unit when we’re working serial killer cases when cops come to us after years of of not being able to do anything.

The case just is cold and they haven’t moved forward at all.

We say go back and talk to the first 20 people that you spoke to.

The guy’s probably one of them.

And so they do.

And sometimes, like in the Green River killer case, sometimes that guy, you know, presented as meek and and absolutely not, you know, somebody they thought would be killing dozens of women.

But when they talked to him again, one of the one of the detectives got got a bad feeling about it.

And then they went out and talked to street workers and and they all said this guy was extremely violent.

This guy was horrible.

And and that’s when he rose to the top of the list.

And of course at by that time the DNA had had the the ability to develop DNA on on clothing for example on victim’s clothing had had literally reached a new level.

So we had them resubmit the best the most wellpreserved clothing from victims and sure enough they got a hit to that guy.

So wow.

That’s how it was that’s how it was solved.

That’s awesome.

And it’s also not uncommon to see handwritten notes in an old file that says, “I think so and so is good for it, but we just haven’t been able to de develop the probable cause.

” So sometimes you have to wait.

And sometimes you have to wait for something as simple as someone breaking up with their girlfriend or their wife because when they say hell hath no fury, that is no joke.

I mean, you know, if you can if you can interview an ex and there’s a lot of animosity there, you’re going to get all kinds of 411, if you know what I’m saying.

So, in addition to that, with time, people might be afraid to come forward, who might fear that they retribution, who might fear that the person would know about it and come after them.

With time, those fears dissipate.

And a number of cold cases that I’ve helped solve were because people who were in a situation at the time, they were talked to or they refused to talk and then later, you know, they moved away, they got a different job, they were in a different relationship, whatever.

Um, then the next time you went to talk to them, they were a fountain of information.

And that’s how a lot of cold cases are solved.

So, this is not a cold case yet.

They have a lot of people that they still are talking to and will talk to.

And I’m I’m very confident I’m very confident that this case will be solved.

And Brian, did you say yesterday that um or the day before that uh the FBI agents seem to have a a sense of optimism and that they seemed, you know, to to just I I I like that and and I like when it goes quiet and I think it’s I think the fact that everyone moved out of their temporary quarters there and now they’re back at the Phoenix Division.

They have a couple of detectives from Pina Pima County on a task force.

I think that’s fantastic because what that does is that takes all the bosses out of your out of your hair and they’re not breathing down your neck anymore and you can just get focused.

You you’re going to have resources.

You’re going to be able to get what you need to get when you need to get it and you can get the job done.

And I think it’s I I think they’re they’re able to just speak freely, you know, like you do in an open squad bay where you’re trying to figure stuff out.

You’re bouncing all the theories off everyone.

And just like you know just like we said now a couple of things and then Jim will say I don’t think that because of this reason and that’s exactly how we talk when we’re in the squad bay and that’s that’s what we call the squad room or whatever but uh wouldn’t you agree Jim? Yeah absolutely and I’m sure I am certain that they are working on a number of different avenues.

It’s not just it’s not just one one theory or one uh investigative avenue.

And some of it just takes time.

And hopefully the science will come through for us.

Hopefully the the crime scene investigators, Moren and I both did that.

Moren did it for a lot longer than I did, but uh we were crime scene investigators for the FBI and we call them evidence response team members and hopefully those people who collected the evidence uh when when the crime scene was pristine um as pristine as as it was going to be.

Hopefully they did a good job uh taking samples from a lot of different places.

When you’re on the inside of in of an investigation like this and time goes by like a month, you know, and it you’re not it’s not moving as quickly as you hoped, can they over complicate things? Like c can you start going down rabbit holes when in reality like the simpler option is actually going to turn out to be? Do you know what I mean? Like I don’t know cuz I don’t know how it works with police but you even like when I’m working on stories and stuff and I’m having issues figuring something out sometimes my mind will go down a whole wrong path just because but it’s really just the simple answer.

Well yeah Aquin’s razor yeah that typically applies however what they have to do is literally it it’s basically a shotgun approach at you have to look at all different avenues.

You can’t I mean you really you’re really doing the investigation a disservice if you put blinders on and try to look down one alley.

You literally have to keep your mind open.

You have to go you have to pursue everything.

And the the the fact that it takes time for answers to come back gives you the opportunity to send out questions in a lot of different directions.

And then as the answers come back eventually eventually hopefully it will they’ll all start forcing you into one direction.

But you never want to lead the investigation into a particular direction because it’s the best way to screw up and and not get the not get the bad guys.

And I always say the hallmark of any good investigation or any good investigator is to go exactly where the evidence leads you.

So, we all have to open our aperture to the biggest opening and even when people say silly stuff sometimes you’re like, you know, you have to at least consider it in some way, shape or form.

But, um, yeah, they’re they’re working on a number of different things and they’re just waiting for that.

Uh we don’t know what the big lead’s going to be or what the big break is going to be in this case, but there’s going to be there’s going to be a big break hopefully very soon.

Yeah.

When you said you have to consider everything, someone was telling me like actually someone who works at the sheriff’s office here that even like when the psychics call in, you still have to listen because they could be trying to translate a message to you.

They might not really be a psychic.

They might just be saying they’re a psychic, but they actually know.

Like they were just saying, you can’t just discount you can’t discount anything.

Oh, I see what you’re saying.

So, it may be someone trying to give a tip.

Yeah.

Or a lead, but they’re disguising themselves as a psychic.

Exactly.

So, they he was just making the point like you’ve got to you’ve got to listen to all the tips, even if the person sounds a little kooky at first.

A lot of them, a lot of a million dollars is going to bring out the cooks.

I can tell you that.

As always, I really appreciate Moren and Jim for taking the time to talk with me.

Appreciate you guys for following along.

I can’t believe it’s already day 36.

Uh, but I’ll stay on it.

I’ll keep you guys posted with any new developments.

Um, and as always, I say, I mean, we just hope that there’s a positive outcome to all this and that Nancy that there’s a miracle and, you know, that there’s a resolution to this whole thing.

So, um, I’ll keep you guys, uh, up to date on everything and I’ll talk to you guys later.