Hey guys, uh it is day 61 uh in the search uh for Nancy Guthrie.

I am uh still here uh in Tucson, Arizona.

I’m actually outside um the TV station here, KVOA, where there’s this really big banner that says bring her home.

It’s it’s so sad.

I’ll read you guys some of the messages there later, but there’s now like thousands of signatures.

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Uh, but in this episode, I want to get to the latest um on the investigation and this interview that I had for News Nation with um a source close to the investigation um who you guys know I’ve been meeting a lot of people.

I’ve been talking to a lot of people.

This person was willing to sit down and do an interview with me.

I obviously had to conceal their identity um just because they could get in a lot of trouble for speaking out.

Um, but this source uh wanted to clarify some things, wanted to talk about things happening behind the scenes, wanted to talk about mistakes that were made early on.

Uh, and had a message for Savannah Guthrie.

Um, so it was quite an interview.

Uh, I want to um I want to play it for you and then I’ll I’ll tell you a little more on the other side.

What would you say are the biggest mistakes when it comes to to the Nancy Guthrie investigation from what you know? Speaking with some people that actually know the intimate knowledges of this investigation have told me that there was an immediate rush to judgment on what was happening at that scene and it was that Nancy had somehow wandered off.

And so they rushed to that judgment, stayed with that judgment, and then ran the investigation as if this was a search and rescue issue opposed to a possible criminal issue.

From what you know were the initial people who responded and experienced.

From what I understand, the people that were there on the scene um were not tenure homicide detectives.

They didn’t have a lot of experience in homicide at that point.

uh to include the supervisor who from my understanding never investigated homicide before being installed as the supervisor for the the homicide unit.

So the supervisor who first responded to Nancy Guthri’s house had never investigated a homicide.

Correct.

How is that possible? Well, you have decisions made by people that will install friends and people that can do stuff for them opposed to people that are there on their merit and can do the job correctly.

Do you think not enough evidence was collected? The fact that uh detectives had returned to that location not once but several times leads me to believe that they should have handled it differently.

They should have kept the scene secure.

Do you get the sense right now that there’s anyone that they’re seriously looking at? Uh the people I’ve talked to that are still in the no on this investigation tell me there’s no direct suspect right now.

No name on the table.

Is that shocking? Not with how the investigation’s gone so far.

Um, I mean, you have individuals that are either lucky as hell or more cunning than a lot of people have seen in the past.

If you take the first extremely lucky, maybe his luck will run out, but so far it hasn’t.

But if you take the second one that he was extremely cunning, there’s a chance that he may have covered his tracks so well that we may not find out what happened right now.

Obviously, we’re hiding your identity right now because you could get in a lot of trouble for for speaking out this way.

What would you want to say to the sheriff if if you could? I would say that he ruins a great department.

Um, it’s savable if he steps aside and I would ask him to step aside.

How would you describe morale at the sheriff’s office right now? I would say right now it’s extremely low.

Um, this is the lowest I’ve seen.

There’s a lot of embarrassment um especially with the news um kind of um conversations that had with Nanos, his interaction with the media when the press conferences started happening and the interviews with Nanos.

What were you thinking? Uh shut your mouth, stop talking.

That’s pretty much what we were all saying is why is he out there saying that the no confidence vote? I mean that every single deputy in the union voted that they don’t have confidence in the sheriff.

I think to a lot of outsiders was like wow.

I mean every single deputy.

Yeah.

This isn’t the first no confidence vote that we’ve done.

Um so it should have been no surprise to him especially with what has been going on.

So not only our local community, Arizona in general, but just the nation now sees that we have no faith in Chris Nanos.

Is it awkward for people working there? I think everyone is is walking on eggshells.

What would people in the department want to say to Savannah? Just to explain it to Savannah that um just because we have an incompetent lead uh doesn’t mean that we don’t care, that we don’t want Nancy to be brought home safely and that we’re not with her in this.

We are completely with her and her family on this.

I really appreciate obviously that source for for trusting me, for sitting down with me.

Um, obviously some important information getting out about what is going on behind the scenes, what the source says is happening about, uh, you know, issues with the investigation early on.

I reached out to Puma County Sheriff um, Chris Nanos for comment on some of the allegations and just some questions that I had uh, before this ran on NewsNation.

And I did not get a a response.

I asked for an interview.

I was told he’s not doing any interviews.

Granted, he’s done other interviews.

I saw them on the local stations here.

So, but I but I did try to get a response.

He has said and made clear in the past that he stands by his investigation.

He doesn’t believe that he made any mistakes.

Um, and remember early on in one of the press conferences, he said maybe he should have kept that crime scene up earlier or later, you know, shouldn’t have taken it down, but then later said, well, he actually doesn’t think he made any mistakes.

Uh, and he has said he stands by his investigators and has an a experienced team.

So, that’s what he said in the past, but he didn’t respond to this specific report.

If he does, I’ll do some kind of update.

Uh, I want to talk to um my friend uh and retired FBI agent Steve Moore.

I had part of his conversation on my last podcast.

I want to continue that conversation now with uh and get his take on uh these these uh latest items that that my source uh brought up in that interview and and really dig in with Steve about what it all means and where things go from here.

Steve, our source told us that there was what what they called a rush to judgment uh based on the initial investigators who were not experienced and the sheriff that Nancy wandered off.

That that’s what they that’s the theory they were working off of initially, that first team that arrived.

Um and and if you remember from Savannah’s interview, she made the point.

We were trying to tell them she didn’t just wander off.

um she can’t even walk to the mailbox most days.

If they were going under that assumption, like would you think that that was a waste of time in the beginning? Like what goes through through your mind there? Well, if you’re looking for somebody who walked away from the house who’s in their 80s, you’re going to do a search about 20 20 yards around the house, and you’re not going to treat it as a crime.

You’re not going to be looking for somebody uh to assist.

You’re not going to be looking for tire tracks or footprints or anything else.

You might be walking the searchers for her might be walking all over.

I mean, think about it.

That, you know, the exterior of the house right there, if there was dirt nearby, anything like that, flower beds, anything that they might have stepped in, that’s your crime scene.

and they were treating it as a search location, which means everybody come on in and we’ll have a we’ll we’ll have a huddle right here and stand in the driveway when you don’t want them standing on the driveway.

So, that’s a huge thing.

I can understand how they might have thought, what’s the chances of of somebody being kidnapped for ransom in our little town? It doesn’t matter what the chances are.

You have to work every angle.

And um it’s it’s just pretty pretty frustrating that uh the other thing is one one sign of a really good investigator is admitting when they’re on the wrong track.

Uh I always admired the agents who would say I was absolutely sure I had it and then this one piece of evidence didn’t fit and I realized it made my conclusions impossible.

So, I have to start over.

And and I always loved agents like that and said, “Yeah, yeah, good job.

You you you followed the evidence, but when the evidence didn’t go where you wanted it to go, you you agreed to go with the evidence, not with what you wanted to believe.

” Yeah.

And I guess, you know, there’s a lot of elderly people in this part of Arizona.

they deal with a lot, I’m told, of elderly people who do wander off and people who have dementia.

But if you show up to this scene and you’re told right away she can’t walk far and she does not have any dementia.

Um I I’m just wondering if they were their inclination was oh no, but we see this happen so much we still think she wandered off.

And and my question would be if I was an arriving detective would be, hey, how many people when they walk away leave blood on the front door and rip out their own Ring camera, right? Doesn’t fit with a walk away.

Um there were some very obvious reasons, uh not the least of which is the family saying she couldn’t do that.

um that within the first hour of arriving that should have tipped them off that this was a crime, not a walk away.

I I just This isn’t It isn’t rocket science.

There’s blood.

She’s missing and the ring camera has been ripped off the wall.

People don’t walk away like that.

I wonder how soon they realized that the ring camera was ripped off because on Savannah’s interview made it seem like um they noticed it pretty early on if if you’re if you’ve got eyes in your head.

I mean, when you’re walking up to a a potential crime scene, you’re looking at everything.

I mean, it’s it’s it’s kind of a cliche, but you’re looking at everything as you walk up.

Also, if you’re Savannah’s sister Annie who lives close by, takes care of the mom, you know, looks after Nancy and showed up and is the one who realized she was missing, they knew she had the Ring camera.

I would think like if it was my mom, she probably went to check the camera.

Like, that’s what I would do.

Well, what happened? Let me So, I would imagine they figured it out pretty quickly.

Well, and then you have to wonder why they weren’t listening to Savannah and Annie all along.

Did they did they think that in their in their vast non-experience that they knew more about it than uh the family? Yeah.

And was I mean, like you said, those beginning hours are critical.

Yeah.

And and I feel bad for the detectives and the really good people of the sheriff’s department.

I am not painting this department as as a bad department.

I’m just saying that one or two people can ruin uh a reputation with them with with the first according to our source crime scene investig homicide supervisor having no homicide experience and we know that they came and processed the scene and then they opened it back up where we were able to get the blood the video of the blood in the in the front and then the FBI came back later to proc they came back several times to process the scene after that Is is that a problem that they opened it back up and then came back later? Well, yeah.

If you open the scene, uh you’ve you’ve lost a substantial amount of evidentiary value uh of anything you find after that.

Everything you find after it’s been opened, especially when the public knows what’s been going on and the bad guy knows what’s been going on, it opens the question, did somebody plant something once it was opened up.

So, so yeah, that’s a terrible mistake.

Um, and I cannot imagine anybody doing that.

And I know there had to be people yelling uh within the sheriff’s department saying do not release this.

Do not release this.

But a decision was made higher up that they did release it and it’s inconceivable.

Do you think that just goes back to the inexperience? Yeah.

I mean, you just don’t do that.

The the FBI coming back days later to process the scene, does it impact what they did because it was opened back up? Like what if they what if they say, “Well, we don’t think anybody went in between those times.

” Yeah, it wasn’t technically a crime scene, but no one went in the house.

Well, how do they know? Were was was were they under 24-hour surveillance? You know, was the house under 24-hour surveillance? How do you know that the footprint that you just see in the dirt uh was there before they they released the crime scene? I mean, everything you uh everything you’re looking for is now suspect.

Yeah.

Well, and the fact that the media that we were able to walk up in the I mean, the footprints would definitely be an issue, but the inside um and there wasn’t surveillance because then they didn’t even look after the house after that.

They left the first time cuz we were out there.

There wasn’t a deputy outside.

So, I guess they would have no way of saying 100% that no one went in the house.

Yeah.

I I just, you know, I I think for instance, the FBI, I think if they had just been there at the crime scene right away, they probably would have just removed the tile with the blood on it and sent it just that way back to Quantico.

Uh because blood spatter the way microscopic weight, did the blood fall vertically or did the blood fall at an angle? Was it a high velocity, medium velocity, or low velocity spatter? There are all these things that you can get when you have the original evidence and it’s just, you know, a lot of that original evidence is um, you know, you can take a photograph of something and you can’t blow it up to microscopic level.

You just get pixels.

Uh, if you have the item in front of you, you can uh go down to the microscopic level and find a lot out.

So, you’ve seen where they would have actually taken the tiles off the front step, just just remove tiles.

Oh, yeah.

More often than not, um, if there’s blood on sheets, say you’ve got a a fitted sheet or something.

Um, they would send that entire sheet back to uh, Quanico.

I would have at this point I might have sent all the bed clothes, blood or not, or all the bed clothes back to see if anybody dropped a hair on the couch or on the on the comforter or whatever.

It’s if you’re helping somebody out of a bed, she’s 85.

She’s going to need help.

What if you dropped What if a hair fell out of of your head? What if you touched something? There could be there could have been evidence in the sheets.

The uh the source is also telling us that there are no suspects, that they have no suspects right now, which to me doesn’t come as a huge surprise just based on what I’ve seen.

Does that surprise you? Not anymore.

Uh, I cannot tell you how many, you know, through this entire case, we’d be walking, two agents walking who knew each other back to different shows and and we’d say, “You think they’re going to get them?” “Oh, yeah.

I think they’re going to get him in 24 hours.

” I say 48.

And none of us could figure out what made this case so, you know, like the Riddler did it or something.

I think it was just that the case was botched early on.

You think that’s just impacted it all along? Yeah.

See, cases are made cases are made sometimes by the thinnest of margins, the smallest pieces of evidence.

I mean the whole lockerby thing uh you know when when Libya bombed TWWA or uh Panama uh that Panama flight that was solved by by a line of police officers in Scotland who found a circuit board this big and they were able to trace it to Libya.

I mean that’s how close cases come.

And so if you have somebody who’s reduced the value or the the value of the evidence by 10%.

That’s may be enough.

It could just be the smallest little thing that was missed.

If you delay evidence coming in for 3 or 4 days, then it may mean that some evidence never came in at all.

Um it is it is a you know it’s it’s like that uh you know a butterfly flapped its wings on one side of the earth and the the other side you end up with uh huge huge changes.

Uh you don’t know what the ripple effect of of a bad case initiation could be.

something else that the the person told us referring to the suspects, whoever they are, or suspect, these individuals are either lucky as hell or more cunning than what we’ve seen in the past.

Um, which I’ve thought about a lot about that too.

Is this person just so lucky like they just got lucky and that’s why for two um months they’ve still not been caught? Or was this by design? Were they so good that that they’re getting away with it? If I knew the answer, I I would have evidence on the case.

But anybody who wears their uh gun in the wrong holster uh like a codpiece uh and then uses branches to try and cover up uh a doorbell camera to me does not seem like uh like Goldfinger.

You know what I’m saying? it.

I I would suspect that there is possibly some some uh some wellplanned aspects of the crime.

Uh but parts of it were just embarrassingly goofy and that’s why so frustrating that they haven’t caught the person yet.

I can’t imagine why, but now I’m getting an idea.

So it may have just been been luck some of it is what you’re saying.

luck and the fact I mean part of their luck is that the case wasn’t investigated properly right at the beginning and that slowed it down and changed the course of the investigation and maybe evidence didn’t come in.

There was something else I asked the person about what they would say to Savannah, what other people around the case would say to Savannah and they said that they’re with her.

um that you know even though there’s issues with their leadership, they say it’s not um it they don’t want to be reflected in the hard work that they’re doing.

What do you make of that? I mean, when you’ve worked cases and I mean it it must be hard when you think about the victim, especially if you’re not happy with the way your bosses have performed.

Yeah, it is it is uh it is disturbing at times and you lay awake at night at times and I know that there are um sheriff’s office de uh department uh deputies out there and detectives out there who are just agonizing over over how this has gone and how they’re being portrayed.

And I I feel horrible for um the Guthrie family.

I I just they deserve better than this and I feel horrible for the department because they deserve better than this and um they’re getting dragged through the mud for something that wasn’t a departmental problem.

It was uh well it was it was not uh it was not an infection throughout the department.

was it was uh it was a problem higher up and so uh apparently and um so yeah it it is very hard and and you know um Savannah is doing I mean she is the I this sounds horrible she is the ideal victim relative because she expects excellence from the police but she doesn’t denigrate them for not having uh success in the investigation.

She understands what they’re going through.

She understands the effort that’s being put forward and she has not turned on them publicly and that helps them.

That motivates them more.

That makes them every time uh Savannah comes on and says the police are working hard, you don’t know.

They’re just they’re tireless.

That makes them that makes them really not want to go home at night until they’ve gotten the next bit of information.

That motivates She couldn’t do more to motivate law enforcement to do the right thing here.

And um again, in in her in her worst times, you’re probably seeing the best u strength she’s ever had.

Yeah, that was the word she used, tireless.

But I thought about this like she must be getting frustrated and I’m just thinking if I were in her shoes, you you probably don’t want to air those frustrations publicly because the like you said, you want to keep the people motivated that are going to be the ones to hopefully solve this.

Yeah, I’ve seen cases ruined by uh by uh victim victim family bonding too close to the police department who’s doing the wrong thing.

And I’ve seen cases ruined by people who were so frustrated by not having quick resolution that they sabotaged the case by attacking law enforcement.

Um, and right in there is where um the sweet spot is is you can be frustrated um but recognize the difficulties.

Recognize how hard they’re trying and um motivate them privately express frustration and do it with very few people and know who to talk to and um uh move forward that way.

I I think she’s showing how to deal with something like this.

I hope nobody ever ha ever ever ever nobody else ever has to.

Yeah, she’s she’s really been incredibly strong.

Um our a couple more things I wanted to get to.

Our our source said in the interview that morale is extremely low and used the word embarrassment.

Um how they feel about their department right now on the national stage.

I guess I just go back to the investigation.

How does that feeling impact an investigation? It does.

It does.

Um, I can remember when I was assisting, I wasn’t the case agent, but when I was assisting on the Atlanta bombing investigation, the Olympic bombing, and uh, the FBI, um, the part of the FBI settled on this one guy who had been a security guard, and he turned out to be absolutely innocent and actually kind of a hero trying to help people.

And that hurt for a long time.

That’s very embarrassing.

It makes your agency look like Keystone Cops.

And what I would tell the officers who are having to deal with this and the deputies, hang in there.

It changes.

It goes back and and it will not define you if you do not let it define you.

Work work your butt off.

Be honorable and let things fall where they may.

But yeah, it is it is embarrassing and it is painful.

And the source said, “You remember some of those early press conferences that the sheriff was doing over and over again and making some mistakes? I saw your facial expression there.

” Um, the source said that behind the scenes they were saying like, “Please shut your mouth.

Stop talking.

” Uh, which I think was frustrating for the people behind the scenes.

I I don’t know why he didn’t listen to him.

Uh, if people are telling you that, and a lot of people are telling you that, you have a choice.

you have to decide either that everybody’s disloyal or um I may be they may be right and the the way the source described it too right now is everyone’s walking on eggshells uh which again I just go back to don’t you need kind of a different environment for a successful investigation you do you absolutely do and maybe there’s some changes that need to be made but you know what I would tell what I would tell you is the fact that you have a source in the investigation tells you how desperate and how frustrated they are because you know who police don’t talk to the press.

Who they don’t trust? The press, the media.

It’s it’s it’s ingrained.

It’s part of your I don’t know how it happens, but it just ingrains in you during training and years and years of work.

And you say, “We are the ones in blue.

They’re the ones trying to ruin our cases.

” So for somebody to come forward to somebody in the media and say you got to know this is not going right.

And that’s almost to me a cry for help saying you know I know nobody would do that because they feel it’s dishonorable.

So doing that somebody’s risking dishonor in order to do the right thing.

All right.

But I really appreciate Steve for taking the time uh to talk with me.

Um as I mentioned earlier, I’m outside the uh Brer Home banner, which is at KVOA, which is the TV station where Savannah Guthrie used to actually work.

Um I kind of want to end this video just reading you some of the messages because again, at the end of the day, uh you know, this is all about Nancy.

This is a a person.

This is a mother.

This is a grandmother.

This is a friend.

And I know I get into a lot of the investigation and the nitty-gritty, but uh you know, there’s still an 84year-old woman missing.

Um and the it’s a mystery and we don’t know how she just disappeared.

Uh and it’s rocked this community.

It’s rocked her friends.

It’s rocked her family.

It’s rocked strangers.

Uh and let me let me flip the camera around and read you a little bit of what what some people have written on this banner.

It says bring her home.

There’s a lot of a lot more flowers out here, but obviously they come and take them away as it’s so hot out here.

They kind of start to go bad quickly, but you can see um prayers for for Nancy, hope for a safe return.

Mostly what God does is love us.

We pray you come home soon.

Mostly what God does is love us.

Savannah Guthrie, love Helen.

We Tucson, we live here in hopes and prayers.

Your prayer Savannah Guthrie family will be answered.

Bring Nancy home.

Thoughts and prayers to you and your family.

Stay strong.

We are with you.

You have our love and prayers.

We love the Today Show.

Bring Nancy home.

We love Nancy.

Thinking of you.

Hope, peace, and love.

The desert is calling for Nancy Guthri’s safe return.

Each siguro arm represents one of your loving children who wants you home.

The fourth arm is the entire Tucson community praying for your safe return.

That’s so nice.

Love and prayers.

Do not lose hope.

Prayers for all.

Prayers from Phoenix, Arizona.

I noticed people sign this from all over the place.

Stay as safe as possible.

We are so very sorry for all of you.

Praying for a miracle.

There are no words.

Nancy, we all love you dearly.

Please come home soon.

May the Lord wrap his arms around you, keeping you safe.

Sending prayers, strength, and hugs.

Bring her home.

Yeah, there’s just so many.

Praying for her to come home.

home.

I mean, everybody just wants Nancy to come home.

Guthrie family, we are praying for you.

Nancy has our hearts.

Love uh Lori from Fernadina Beach, Florida.

So, I was saying people have been coming here from all over the place.

So, there’s kind of a heart.

There were some candles here.

I’ll just back up and let you guys see the banner for those of you who haven’t seen it.

You can see the picture of Nancy there on the end.

Bring her home.

So, I appreciate you guys for following along with me this week in Tucson.

I’ll keep you guys posted if there’s any developments.

Um, I’m going to keep cruising around and see if I can dig anything else up.

Uh, again, appreciate Steve.

I appreciate the source for talking with me.

Uh, and um, I’ll stay on it and I’ll talk to you guys later.