Hey guys, thanks so much for checking out my show.

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Of course, I’m still in Arizona.

It is Sunday.

A lot of big developments I’m going to get to in this episode.

This is Nancy Guthri’s house.

Obviously, this is kind of where I’ve been stationed.

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Um, but we got a new statement from the FBI talking about DNA that was found on one of the gloves that was recovered.

And this could really be significant, especially in light of the DNA that we know was also found inside NY’s home.

So, I have a DNA expert who I’m going to talk to who is going to join me uh in a couple of minutes and explain the significance of this and why this does mean we could be getting closer uh to a suspect.

Also, you guys remember the SWAT raid Friday night that I was at? Uh I went back out to the house where the raid happened.

Um, then a couple days later, I find a lot of times when you go back to places a couple days later, uh, you can see if people want to talk then when things sort of simmer down.

So, I’ll show you what that was like.

Um, really nice neighborhood, by the way.

So, I’ll take you back to the house.

Uh, and then also, um, more drama with the Pima County Sheriff.

Uh, in this episode, I have an interview with a sergeant from the Pima County Sheriff’s Office, who is also the union president, who is very concerned about the way the investigation has been handled.

He’s concerned about a lack of experience with the detectives on the case.

Um, and he explains to me what he thinks should be done differently and also what is being said within the department.

It’s the first time I’ve been able to interview him and he is a sergeant with the department right now.

Uh, and he was able to speak freely because he’s got the protections because he is the union president.

Uh, and then lastly, I’m going to get into the signal sniffer.

Remember I told you guys about that? that is this uh device that I’ve now found out came from the FBI that they attached to the helicopter that can actually sense NY’s pacemaker.

Um everything new I’ve learned about that also coming up in this episode of Brian Enson Investigates.

Hey guys.

All right, so I want to go over the latest with you on the newest development with the um FBI statement involving new DNA on the glove.

And first, the statement’s a little confusing.

So, I’m going to tell you what I make of it in a second.

But first, let me just read you this new statement uh from an FBI spokesperson.

And it says, “The gloves found approximately 2 miles from the Guthri residence in a field near the side of the road were packaged up by the Pima County Sheriff’s Office and sent overnight on 212 and they arrived at their private lab in Florida on 213.

The FBI received preliminary results yesterday on 214 and are awaiting quality control and official confirmation today before putting unknown mail profile into COTUS, the national database unique to the bureau.

Uh this process typically takes 24 hours from when the bureau receives DNA.

Investigators collected approximately 16 gloves in various areas near the house.

Most of them were searchers gloves that they described that they discarded in various areas when they searched the vicinity.

Uh the uh the one with the DNA profile recovered is different and appears to match the glove of the subject in the surveillance video.

The FBI has and will continue to provide assistance on whatever timeline is provided to us.

So the most important line here that I hear that I’ve see that I see is the one with the DNA profile recovered is different and appears to match the glove on the subject in the surveillance video.

So there is one of the gloves that they have found that is different because they say it actually matches the glove that we see in the surveillance video at the front of Nancy Guthri’s home and it has a DNA profile on it that they are interested in and that they are going to put into CO.

So, that is pretty significant.

And remember, a lot of people are saying, “Well, how do they know exactly if the glove matches based on that video that we’ve just seen from the front door?” They could have more video that we just don’t know about.

Nancy had other cameras.

Um, and they may only be releasing publicly the video from the front camera, but they very well may have been able to get video from the other Google Nest cameras that Nancy had.

I I am told she may have had one more and maybe that also picked up video of this of the suspect.

I don’t know.

But if it did, that could be another way that they’re able to get a close look um at the glove.

Uh so this is significant.

Um the other thing that stood out to me is when they said that some of the other gloves that they found were from searchers that had discarded them in various areas.

I mean, that just kind of surprised me.

You would think that the search crews would not be just discarding their gloves outside.

Um especially since it appears most of the searchers have been either deputies or FBI agents.

Uh, and I will say I’ve seen some photos of some of the law enforcement out searching with these black gloves just like hanging out of their back pocket.

And I I noticed it because I thought, gosh, those could just like fall out of their back pocket and then would someone pick that up and think that that was a glove connected to the case.

So, uh, that part kind of stood out to me.

Um, but really the main message here is that they they have a glove with the DNA profile recovered.

Um, and the glove appears to match the gloves of the subject in the surveillance video.

Later in this episode, you’ll hear me I talked to a sergeant with the Pima County Sheriff’s Office who actually happens to also be the union president, which is why he was allowed to talk to me.

But he’ll explain he’s skeptical of this glove actually matching back to the suspect just because he says there really are a lot of these gloves around.

There’s a lot of homeless people around.

He says there’s a lot of people who wear these gloves for different work that they do.

So, he was skeptical, but you’ll hear why he says that a little later in the episode.

I also want to remind you when it comes to DNA, there was another big development over the last couple of days.

The sheriff said that they found DNA in Nancy Guthri’s home, uh, which is back there behind me.

Um, that does not connect back to Nancy Guthrie and does not connect back to anyone in her, you know, circle of people that come to the house.

So, that to me is almost more significant than the DNA found uh on the glove because that really could be the kidnapper’s DNA.

But the bottom line is they’re getting DNA now in from different places.

Not to mention, remember the search warrant they did where they likely swabbed people for DNA there, too.

Um, so the bottom line is they’re getting DNA in now from different different places.

And this is when you start to see a case come together from the experts that I’ve spoken to and from the cases that I’ve covered.

Uh this is when DNA experts can really go to work and they can start comparing different different, you know, pieces of DNA that came in and start trying to make connections.

So, I get the sense that things might really start heating up over the next couple of days based on some of this new information um that’s coming out.

So, again, I’m going to get to my DNA expert here in a minute, but I wanted to get through some of the other big headlines for you, and she’ll actually explain uh how significant this is.

Um, something else.

So, remember Friday night I was at the SWAT operation that happened where they went into the house, they pulled a man and a woman out who I’m told were mother and son, and then they also pulled someone over close by as part of the same operation.

Uh, and we’re told there were no arrests made.

It was all connected to the Nancy Guthrie investigation, but I’m told by sources not to just discount all of this, that there’s still very much an investigation happening behind the scenes that they served this federal search warrant.

Um, and that uh, you know, they’re they’re still processing evidence.

Uh, so I went back to the neighborhood today.

I hadn’t had a chance to go back since I was there when it was dark out and I wanted to see what it looked like in the daylight.

And I also wanted to go up to the door and see if anyone was home.

So, take a look at this.

So, this is my first time back in the neighborhood where the SWAT activity was on Friday night.

I was here.

It was obviously dark and then I got so distracted with all the other developments of the weekend.

Um, but this is what the neighborhood looks like.

It’s a pretty nice neighborhood.

It’s interesting cuz again, I was only it was so dark when I was out here.

It’s interesting to see it all in the daylight.

Um, this is the house here uh that the SWAT activity um happened at.

Uh, and it’s pretty pretty quiet around.

I’m going to go to the door and see if anybody uh is home at the house.

[snorts] Doesn’t look like anybody’s answering.

I think other reporters have already been here.

Not sure if anyone’s home, although there is a car.

We’ll be right there.

Oh, hi.

We’ll be right there.

It said head.

I don’t think anyone’s coming.

I did.

I saw someone in the window.

Hello.

Hello.

There was a woman that just opened the blind just for a second.

But yeah, I don’t think they’re coming out.

Like I said, I think I’ve some of the reporters have been here and um it looked like a kind of an older woman that opened the curtain just for a second.

There’s this car that was in an accident in the driveway.

Um but yeah, so this is the neighborhood.

It’s pretty again a pretty nice neighborhood.

kind of reminds me of Nancy Guthri’s neighborhood a little bit.

It’s about 2 milesi away, but it uh the houses are much much closer together and they’re out closer to the road.

In NY’s neighborhood, there’s obviously a lot more like shrubbering cactuses in the front.

So, I’ll go back to that house again.

I find just with my reporting that um sometimes when things cool down and all the other reporters leave and like I’m going to forget about something that uh that’s the best time to kind of swoop in and try to talk to people.

So, I’m going to check out the house again and just keep an eye on that whole situation because again, while there were no arrests, I’m told that there’s still activity happening behind the scenes.

Um, something else I wanted to update you guys on, if you follow me on on Twitter, uh, I’ve talked about this signal sniffer, which I confirmed and I actually have video of, um, this helicopter.

We saw it last week.

It was the Pima County Sheriff’s Office helicopter that was uh hovering very very low over Nancy Guthri’s house and then hovering low over the sideyard in the backyard and just different areas around the house.

But it was peculiar because I haven’t seen search and rescue helicopters hover in one place that low for extended period of time like it would it would stay in one spot for like three minutes and then move but again very very low.

Uh, and I am told that there was a piece of technology on the chopper that was sent in from the FBI called a signal sniffer.

And it is, uh, it’s a new kind of technology.

It’s pretty top secret in many ways.

Uh, and they attach it to a skid of the helicopter and it could actually sense Nancy Guthri’s pacemaker.

Again, I’m told it’s an imperfect science and it’s a new technology and it has to hover low and it has to stay in one place.

That’s why the helicopter was was just like not moving around a ton.

But they believe that it has the there’s the possibility that it could actually um pick up on Nancy Guthri’s pacemaker.

It also, by the way, picks up on other things.

Airpods, I’m told, you know, uh smart washers and dryers, all of those things.

So, it becomes a little complicated trying to narrow it down.

Uh but it’s interesting.

It is a uh technology that they have used in the past, and I confirmed that with one of my sources on the ground.

And then uh NewsNation reporter Libby Dean, who’s my friend in DC, also confirmed it with her FBI source that the FBI did send that technology in uh and that it has be has been used, which is just interesting because I’ve never heard of something like that before.

Um and it’s just kind of fascinating that they could try to to to detect NY’s pacemaker.

And hopefully when I saw them using it, it was over a week ago, so I don’t know if they’ve used it again, but it’s just a it’s kind of a neat piece of technology that they’re using uh in this investigation.

I want to go now though to CC Moore, who is a um really just a famous DNA expert.

She’s worked on a lot of big cases, and I want to get her take on this latest information that we got from the FBI regarding the DNA on the glove and also the DNA in Nancy Guthri’s house.

I’m joined now by uh CC Moore.

It’s nice to see you, Cece.

Um, and I think it’s quiet out here.

Hopefully, I’m outside Nancy Guthri’s, so sometimes it gets a little noisy out here, but I think it’ll be okay.

Um, just a lot of people in the crime community know you obviously, but just for people who don’t know you, tell me a little bit about your background.

Well, I’m one of the early pioneers of genetic genealogy and then that transition into using it for law enforcement purposes.

And I am the chief genetic genealogologist at Parabon Nano Labs.

My small team and I have helped law enforcement solve over 365 cases now.

So I think we’ve really proven the power of investigative genetic genealogy.

For sure.

So I’m I’m glad you’re the perfect person for me to talk to about these latest developments with Nancy Guthrie.

The first thing I wanted to ask you is this new information that came out from the FBI about this glove that was found two miles from Nancy Guthri’s house that they found some DNA on and they’re going to put into Cotus, I guess, after they finalize the testing.

What do you make of that? What does that mean? You know, it’s interesting to me that they’ve agreed to put it into CO because that usually means that they feel fairly confident about it.

They have very strict guidelines about what DNA is allowed in that database.

So that leads me to believe that they have a reasonable belief that it could be from the crime scene.

However, being 2 miles away, of course, I would obviously use great caution in coming to conclusions about who the suspect is just based on that alone.

We’ve had a lot of cases where we have analyzed things like gloves and like other items in or near crime scenes.

And of course, when you’re doing that, it really requires that there is a lot more caution used because it very well could be an innocent person.

Yeah.

And a lot of people use those black gloves for different jobs and like you said, the fact that it’s two miles away.

The sheriff also said that they found DNA in NY’s house that is not that doesn’t connect back to Nancy and doesn’t connect to anyone really within her circle because apparently they’ve swabbed, you know, like the workers that have gone in and out and the family members and stuff.

That to me see is that significant? To me that’s much more significant because we know that’s tied to the crime scene.

Of course it still doesn’t guarantee that it is the suspect.

DNA can last a long time depending on what the form is of that DNA.

I’ve worked cases where we analyzed a drop of blood and it ended up being someone who’d lived in the house two years earlier.

And of course, we know Nancy has been there for many years, decades.

So, she should have a pretty good idea.

I mean, her family should have a pretty good idea about who has been in and out there.

So, that helps a lot.

I am very optimistic about that part of it, much more so than the glove.

Um, and I think that if they really do have that alien DNA there, that DNA that they are not able to tie to any known person, that that could very well be the answer to this case.

And I’m told that with some of these people that they’ve been questioning, you know, they’ve done some search warrants over the last week, that they are swabbing them also for DNA.

Um, Makes perfect sense.

How does that work? So what then they will go and compare that to what they found in the house or how does that work behind the scenes, right? So that is using the traditional law enforcement DNA analysis that they have used for decades in cases like this.

So that’s just a straight profile onetoone comparison.

Do any of those individual match any of and do does the DNA profile from any of those persons of interest match any of the DNA that was found in the house? If they did, that’s obviously huge.

Even if it matched that glove, that could be really telling, right? Because that’s unlikely to be a coincidence then.

Uh that’s not something that they would need to use genetic genealogy for.

So that is just the traditional type of testing and comparisons.

How long does it take to get results for something like that? Like if they go and do a search warrant and swap someone, how quickly could they know if it connects back to the DNA on the glove or the DNA in the house? Well, that could be very quick because there’s such a thing as rapid DNA now.

And I’m sure they are using it in this case since it is so timely.

And with those you can create those law enforcement profiles, the type of DNA that’s entered into the Kotus database uh very quickly, almost immediately.

And so that’s something that they should have results on extremely quickly.

And when you say quickly, is it like hours even? Yes.

Yes, hours.

Okay.

So I’m just thinking because this latest raid was on Friday night, it’s now when we’re doing this interview, it’s Sunday.

There have still been no arrests.

So maybe they’ve already gotten the results by this point.

They may have.

It just depends what technology they’re using.

Typically, it would take, I’d say, overnight, you know, a full day if they’re using the traditional crime scene analysis.

But if they’re using one of those rapid DNA analysis machines, which I would be very surprised if they weren’t, that is very, very quick.

So, they would already have answers to some of those questions, I imagine.

If they’ve sent everything so far to this lab in Florida, which the sheriff’s department uses, if they do a a swab of someone here, do they then have to send it to that lab or can they do something here where they just compare it? They could do something there if they have the rapid DNA machine there.

So, the private lab, the outside lab is going to be most useful when it comes to creating a snip profile, which is what we use for genetic genealogy.

Many labs including crime labs, the FBI, many others are able to create that traditional STR profile file, that short tandem repeat profile.

That’s what law enforcement has used for decades.

That is what they use to charge someone with a crime and eventually convict somebody with a crime.

And so there’s a wide uh capability to do that.

So they could have sent it to their own crime lab there in Arizona.

They could have sent it to the FBI for that.

or they could also have DNA Labs International in Florida working on that part of the case.

That’s a much more quick process as compared to creating the SNIP profile and trying to perform genetic genealogy on it.

Yeah.

When I think of genetic genealogy, I think of the Coberger case, which I think is the first time that a lot of people had ever heard of that.

Mhm.

Um, is it essentially where they go? Well, tell me what is I mean, could they use it in a case like this? Oh, absolutely.

In fact, I’ve been waiting for that to happen just hoping that there would be DNA found that was not tied to any of the known individuals from the home because that will solve the case if nothing else does.

It’s just a matter of time then.

If they have that DNA, that person who left that DNA will be identified.

So the the the stranger’s DNA in the house, they could figure out who that person is even if Absolutely.

Yes.

Just they could come up with it almost out of no out of nowhere.

Even if they even if none of these other Yeah, it’s not out of nowhere, but it is a highly reliable method of reverse engineering somebody’s identity just from their DNA.

So if someone leaves their DNA behind at a crime scene, then they absolutely can and eventually will be identified through investigative genetic genealogy.

What is going to determine how long that takes is what population group that person is from.

So if their ancestry is from Latin America and they have recent immigrant ancestors, it’ll be much more difficult to identify that individual.

So it could take a lot longer.

We have a lot of those Hispanic cases and they tend to take weeks, months or years compared to somebody who has deep roots in the United States and primarily Northwest European ancestry.

Is that because if you are Hispanic and your family just came here recently, you’re not in in as many databases.

You don’t have distant relatives in as many databases.

Exactly.

Now, they could get lucky and there could be a close relative in the genetic genealogy databases, but that’s really unlikely.

And that’s because despite the fact that over 50 million people have taken direct consumer DNA tests for law enforcement cases, we are limited to the two or three smallest databases, which is less than two million people.

And I’m hearing a lot of misconceptions out there.

People are saying they can use Ancestry, they can use 23 and me.

That is not true.

Ancestry 23 andMe and My Heritage, the three largest consumer DNA databases, have barred law enforcement’s use.

And there are two well-known databases, Jed Match and Family Tree DNA that have agreed to work with law enforcement.

And then there’s a new nonprofit called DNA Justice that’s much smaller, but is can also be used.

And so those are the ones that they will have to work in unless they can serve a successful warrant on the larger databases.

Now if I was Savannah Guthrie and her family, I would be begging management at Ancestry 23 and me and My Heritage to allow the genetic genealogy profile to be compared in there because it would be a much more uh much more straightforward and quicker identification that way.

But so far they’ve been very very resistant to that even though studies have shown that 91% of the public is in favor of using genetic genealogy to identify this type of criminal.

I’m so glad you explained that because I didn’t know that.

I just assumed that you had access to all of them.

I didn’t know [laughter] we’d be solving thousands and thousands and thousands of cases every day.

we would be solving a case because if for instance you’re adopted now and you want to find your biological family, you can compare against 50 million plus profiles and you can almost always find that family quite quickly.

And I used to work adoption cases back when we had a tiny database.

So working law enforcement cases now is like stepping back to say 2014 trying to find somebody’s biological family.

And that is just because of the size of the databases.

So because we’re working in Jed match where you have to not only be in the database but opt into law enforcement matching that is maybe 600,000 700,000 people and then family tree DNA um there is maybe 1.

2 two million or so in that database.

They don’t release their exact number.

So, you know, some of those are the same people.

So, it’s really under two million people.

And you’ve got to get a little lucky, right? You’ve got to hope that there are close enough relatives in there for you to be able to find their common ancestors.

And so, we’re working with second, third, fourth, fifth cousins and beyond the vast majority of the time.

Occasionally, you will get a close relative, just luck.

So, it’s really going to depend on luck and population group as far as how long genetic genealogy would take to identify this unknown individual.

Two questions.

Do the the bigger companies that you were talking about that don’t let you use their database, do they have they made have there been warrants where they make exceptions? No, I do not believe there has been based on some very good inside sources I have.

But I know that they are ready to serve them in a a case that has, you know, high priority.

For instance, if Charlie Kirk’s killer had not been identified so quickly or the person who tried to assassinate President Trump, those would have been the type of cases where I think it’s very likely the FBI would have gone ahead and served that warrant on the commercial company’s Ancestry 23 and me.

Um, interesting.

in a case like this.

Will they? I don’t know.

But I think that this is going to happen one of these days and it’s going to be a huge knockdown dragout fight between law enforcement and the courts and these very powerful deep pocket consumer DNA testing companies.

Do you think that they have started ancestrial DNA testing? I don’t know how you phrase it with this case.

Do you think it’s already started? Absolutely.

I think they are doing it in parallel like they did in the Kobberger case where there’s enough DNA where they can split that basically and they can create the STR profile that traditional profile from some of the DNA and then will at the same time be creating that snip profile with another portion of the DNA and even in Cobra’s case for instance they were able to do that and it was just transfer DNA or touch DNA right it could have been a lot so it just depends on what they found in NY’s home, how much they have, but we need such a tiny tiny amount to create that genetic genealogy profile that I feel very confident that they are doing that.

And I’ve worked with DNA Labs International in Florida, the company that is doing this.

And they are very good at extracting DNA from evidence.

They have done that on a lot of my successful cases because that’s not something that Parabon does.

We send that out.

And so I have full confidence in them.

I do not at all think it was devastating that it was sent to them.

I trust them and I am sure they are already working towards creating that snip profile if not already completed it and uploading it to those databases where they need to compare it against the people that have allowed us to do that.

And I know you said it’s hard to say an exact time, but like what what is the range of time you think it would take for them to get results to find a second, third, fourth cousin of whoever did this? Well, it takes a little while just to get the comparisons back.

So once you upload that snip profile to Jed match and family tree DNA, it can take a day or two or sometimes even longer at Family Tree DNA to get that list of people who share DNA with that unknown DNA contributor.

So I doubt that they have it yet, but it might be very very close to being uh compared at JedMatch.

If they were able to create that say yesterday and upload it, it would be undergoing those comparisons right now, they might have their match list, you know, as early as today or tomorrow for that day.

Oh, now if there are significant enough matches there, and when I say matches, it’s very different than what most people are used to with law enforcement cases.

Matches has traditionally been an exact match, right? You’re looking for that person in the COTUS database, their DNA or if your state allows familial searching, then you’re looking for someone who is a very close relative in the law enforcement databases.

Only some states allow that, but that can only detect a firstderee relative.

you need a parent, child or a full sibling.

Uh they also can do a Y chromosome search that’s a little bit more complex but that is very very different than in genetic genealogy databases when we say a match that is a partial match.

That is someone who typically will share just a little bit of their DNA.

It might be less than 1% of their DNA and you get a long list.

So everybody that puts their DNA in one of those databases will have hundreds or thousands of matches depending on their population group.

We’re usually looking at the top dozen, two dozen, three dozen matches, and then trying to figure out how they’re related to all of those people.

They might be third cousins, meaning they share great grandparents.

So we’ve got to figure out which set of their great great grandparents.

And we do that by looking for patterns in the data, overlaps, triangulations, who’s this one person or set of siblings that is related to all of these people sharing DNA with the unknown suspect.

So, it can take a long time.

The fastest I’ve ever been able to do it once I got my DNA list from Jed Match was 30 minutes.

And then I have some cases I’ve been working on for seven years.

So, wow.

population.

It’s hard to say.

It really is.

But in a, you know, high priority active case like this, I’m sure they’re going to throw everything at it they can, all the resources they can.

U DNA Labs International has a really good uh chief genetic genealogologist there that I have a lot of confidence in.

And so, if she’s not already working on it, I’m sure she will be soon.

And this is the type of case that you push to the top of the pile and that’s because it’s active, right? The vast majority of the cases that we’re working are cold cases and they’re still important, but public safety is not at risk as much as when you’re working an active case like this or Coberger for instance.

You know, they need to stop these people in their tracks.

So interesting.

Is there anything else CC you think with this case is important? I mean, and we don’t know obviously all the details, but the fact that they have DNA from inside the house, the glove, there’s probably other things that we don’t know about.

From a DNA perspective, do you think they’re making progress just based on what you know from the outside? Well, you know, it’s always hard to know what’s going on behind the scenes.

I’m sometimes so frustrated when I’m working on a case and I see the commentary that’s out there in the public because I know on those cases what’s happening and it’s often very different than what the public or even the media is speculating.

So I hesitate to speculate on that but I have as I said a lot of confidence that they are moving this forward.

the agency already had a relationship with DNA Labs International and a contract which means they’ve been successful in the past.

They trust them and as as I said I have full trust as well.

I think any one making negative comments like that it’s really just competitive posturing you know and we don’t need that in this case.

We want Nancy found we want this person identified.

It doesn’t matter which company does it or which lab does it, which of course I’d love to work the case, right? But I don’t really care as long as somebody skilled is doing it and they they did not make a mistake in my opinion sending that to DNA Labs International.

They can bring in the FBI genetic genealogy team too.

If it ends up being a really difficult case, just like they did in the Kobberger case, right? It was started at a private lab.

it was transferred to the FBI investigative genetic genealogy team and they were the ones who made that identification of Brian and that could happen in this case too.

If it’s taking too long for the private lab then they can certainly bring in the FBI genetic genealogy team and they have resources that we don’t have.

And so sometimes, especially in these uh immigrant cases, Latin American cases, we have had the FBI come in and take over cases, and they were able to identify that person using resources we didn’t have like uh border crossings, right? Immigration records, things that we wouldn’t typically be able to access because as genetic genealogologists outside the government, we are just working with public records only.

We don’t have special law enforcement access.

We just have access to what everyone else has.

Actually, less since we can’t use the big databases like you could if you were researching your own family.

Wow.

Really interesting, CeCe.

I appreciate you explaining it to me.

Thank you for taking the time.

I appreciate Cece for taking the time to talk to me um and explaining some of this DNA stuff to me because it can be kind of this is where things get really complicated and and scientific.

But as you heard her say, this is also when cases come together.

Uh, and we’re starting to see DNA evidence really um, appear in this Nancy Guthrie case.

So hopefully this will help move things along.

Um, I also want you to hear my interview that I just did with Sergeant Aaron Cross, who is a Puma County Sheriff’s Office sergeant.

And I’ve made a lot of sources on the ground here, but I it’s difficult talking to people within the department on camera because um they can get in big trouble for speaking.

What’s interesting about Sergeant Cross is he is also the union president, so he has protections and can speak more freely.

He is not on the inside of the Nancy Guthrie investigation at all.

So, um, he can he can’t speak about what’s happening from the inside of the investigation, but he has a ton of expertise when it comes to this area.

He’s been with the, um, sheriff’s office for almost 20 years, and he also is able to talk about and and openly, which is difficult here because people are nervous to talk badly about the sheriff who are still working there.

But he he can talk about concerns that the deputies have about the sheriff, about the way the investigation has been handled.

um and why he thinks the FBI should have been brought in sooner.

So, listen to my uh conversation with Sergeant Cross.

The first thing I wanted to ask you about was just this new FBI statement that I showed you.

Um first of all, apparently there’s a lot of gloves that have been found.

Yeah.

What do what do you make of that? I mean, I guess these gloves are used for all sorts of purposes, it seems.

It is pretty common.

Uh it could be from investigators.

It could also be I mean, we have a a large amount of homeless that live and camp in the area.

We also have uh we’ve experienced a lot of nighttime car break-ins in this area as well.

Uh so I mean it could be from from any one of those things.

Um hopefully it’s it’s related to the Guthri kidnapping um or incident and they’re able to get some DNA out of it and it breaks the case open.

Um but I understand it was found a couple miles away.

Um hopefully as he’s driving away he throws his gloves out the window.

Um maybe we’ll get a lucky break.

Uh but there’s there’s a lot of possibilities.

It just seems like that would be a dumb thing to do though.

I mean, if you’re the if you’re the suspect, Yeah.

why wouldn’t you bury them or hold on to them, you know? Yeah.

It seems uh very unusual.

He seemed to be very prepared and very careful, at least on the video that was that was released.

And so, it would uh it would seem um very out of character for what we’re able to see.

Uh but, you know, hopefully we’ll get lucky.

And you are a sergeant with the Puma County Sheriff’s Office and also the union president.

Yes, sir.

So, you’re able to talk to us about some of these issues with the department because you’re protected, correct? by the which is why we haven’t really been able to talk to anyone else within the Yeah, I can speak on matters of public concern and have some protections from that.

Do you are you do you ever get nervous about retaliation? Oh, all the time.

I’m sure I’ll be drugging to answer questions about this very interview.

Okay.

What is the since you have your pulse? I mean, how many deputies did you say are in your union? So, we have a little over 300 out of the about 396 uh detectives and deputies in in the department.

It’s almost everybody.

Yes, sir.

So, what is this? What is the feeling right now within the department? I mean, you guys have the eyes of the world.

Yeah.

On you.

Yeah.

It’s tough.

The the deputies, uh, they haven’t been impacted as much.

Uh, the detectives, though, they’re working I mean, some of them are working 8 days straight.

Some of them have put in uh 70 80our weeks for the last couple weeks.

Um, so they’re they’re doing everything possible to try and and solve this crime.

Um they’re they’re working very hard, sacrificing a lot of time with their families.

Um and uh they’re doing everything they can.

Um but it’s uh it’s definitely taken a toll a little bit.

You can you can tell when you speak with them.

Um there’s a little bit of burnout.

I get that sense.

They haven’t vocalized that to me, but you you can tell it’s it’s been a lot.

And working 80 hours a week, uh 70 hours a week, it’s that’s a tall order and a lot of pressure.

I mean, everybody wants to find Nancy, you know.

Certainly.

Yeah.

the the whole it feels like the whole world or at least the nation um that that their eyes are on us and so there’s a lot of pressure internally uh as well as externally to try and solve this quickly.

Is it true and I I’ve just heard this from some people around um the sheriff’s office that the the homicide team is pretty inexperienced right now.

They’re pretty new.

Um and that goes for really all the departments.

So, we have 96 deputy uh I’m sorry, 96 detectives.

45 of them are detective ones, meaning they’re they’re pretty new.

Um inside the unit, I think uh the person that has the most experience inside that unit has three years in homicide.

Um and then uh some of them are are more experienced detectives.

They just haven’t been in homicide.

Um so there’s been a lot of turnover.

Um another example is that our our deputies, we have 195 deputies in patrol.

101 are on probation, meaning they have less than a year.

We’ve experienced uh several waves of exodus of deputies um going to other agencies or retiring early to go work somewhere else.

Um so you’re we’re feeling the consequences of that both on the detective side and in patrol.

Yeah, that’s kind of alarming when you think about a case this complicated.

Very.

And we know the sheriff’s office is still technically in charge and you would think there’d be people with decades of experience.

Yes.

Yes.

And if you if this hand, you know, if this case happened 10 years ago, uh we would have a lot more experience um to handle it.

Um however, I mean, like I said, we only have 96 detectives um compared to something like the FBI.

They could they could bring thousands of of investigators um that they could pull from across the country.

So, um we’re a medium-sized department and of course there are limitations that come with that.

Have there been frustrations on the inside about the way this has been handled? uh a little bit.

Uh they vocalized some of that to me.

Uh a lot of it is just some of the decision-m from from the top makes them look um incompetent and and a lot of those decisions weren’t theirs.

And so uh I agree with uh one of Sheriff Nanos’s versions was that we we gave up the scene probably a little too early.

Um and perhaps we could have kept that locked down.

maybe with the permission of the family could have put up crime scene tape after the search warrant was concluded just with the understanding, hey, we’re we’re probably going to have to come back out here.

Is it okay if we keep people out and and uh see if the family would have agreed with that and put up that that security to keep people uh away just to just to maintain that crime scene as pristine as possible.

What about this relationship with the FBI? Um because we’ve heard from FBI sources that it hasn’t been good.

you know, there were I even heard a couple nights ago there was some critical information that wasn’t shared with Abolo uh that they just didn’t tell the FBI about.

Um and then you know this whole issue with the lab it’s going to Florida whereas the FBI is why isn’t some of this stuff going to Quanico? Where does that stem from? So my opinion is that this this comes from 2016.

I think uh when Sheriff Nannis was investigated when he was interim sheriff back then, I think that that investigation um caused a lot of the the icy relationship that we see today.

I don’t uh he he holds grudges and um took that as a as a shot and I think that he hasn’t forgotten it and uh I think that’s driving some of the decision- making that’s going on right now.

Do you think the relationship is getting better at all though? Because when we went out to the search warrant, I guess that was on Friday night.

You know, the FBI was there for that.

It was an F and it was your SWAT team, but then it was an FBI search warrant, federal search warrant.

I mean, do you think they’re trying to mend that now or what’s your sense? If there’s any efforts to mend the fences between them, it’s only because of public pressure um for him to do so.

Uh, but I think that this case, what worries me is I I’m worried that this case has become uh an ego case for him, that this is our chance to to one up the FBI or to show that we’re as good as the FBI.

Um, and I’m not sure that that should be driving the decision-m.

We have very capable, hardworking detectives.

Um, however, it’s like I said before, we’re a medium-sized agency.

We just simply don’t have the the manpower, the assets, the funding uh that something like the FBI could bring to to bear.

What happened with I I’ve heard some rumblings about the search plane and the and the pilot I think or do you know much about that situation? Yes sir.

Uh it was a it was a pilot/TFD the tactical flight deputy.

So our plane has two people in it the pilot and the person behind him who was operating the the highdeinition cameras the fleer all that and so the there was a pilot/TFD who was normally assigned to work that day with a pilot.

However, he was transferred the week before I believe on January 25th and uh he was transferred back to patrol and as be as a result of that he was not replaced and so as a a result of that the plane was not able to be used immediately.

From what I understand from people who work that day the helicopter was initially used um because there was a pilot at the hanger and a helicopter pilot.

So, they jumped in the helicopter and responded.

And that has some benefit.

Um, when you fly a helicopter around a missing person, often times people they go out of their house to go, “What’s going on? Why is their helicopter flying so low around the around the neighborhood?” And so, when you get people out of their houses, sometimes they’ll see a disoriented elderly person or or someone in need, a small child, and they’ll call 911.

Um, however, eventually they they called the TFD out that day and then they flew back to the hanger, I understand, and then got the plane out of the hanger and got it overhead.

Um, but that took two or three hours from what I understand.

So, did the sheriff have an issue? You said the person was transferred out.

Yes, sir.

What was Do you know why? There’s a minor demeanor complaints um with with the pilot.

I think he’d been around 17 years and uh there were some demeanor complaints and in in behavior with his interactions with some other people inside the unit um that in my opinion could have been handled uh a little differently.

Um he received informal discipline and then was transferred.

I think that uh informal discipline and perhaps a special observation probation would have been more appropriate and would have kept that asset which is it that plane is the most valuable law enforcement asset in southern Arizona and if it moved to Phoenix it would be the most valuable asset in Phoenix.

It’s that good.

Um I’ve seen it has the monitors in the back.

It’s impressive.

I saw some pictures.

Fantastic.

Uh and every all the local agencies around us uh whenever it’s available they want to use it for any of their cases.

It’s it’s extremely valuable.

And so I feel like handling that a little bit differently would have kept that plane ready um and addressed the problem with the employee.

Uh but that decision uh was made differently.

So that uh deput is a deputy.

Yeah.

Yes, sir.

Yeah.

He had 17 years of experience with that kind of work.

Yes, sir.

And he hasn’t been able to work this case.

Correct.

And he started as a TFD that we then made into a pilot.

So he had 17 years in the air unit, I should clarify.

Um but he’d been a longtime pilot, was a longtime TFD.

Um and and was very good at his job.

So he could be helpful right now.

Yes.

That day he he they would have been up quickly and perhaps the the searchers because when this first came out, we initially believed that it was an elderly person who may have bumped their head or something and walked away.

And so having that plane up with its capabilities would have allowed the the search and rescue team to in my opinion more quickly realize that that she’s not in the area and maybe we need to start look looking somewhere else and thinking about this differently especially considering the blood drops.

Tell me a little bit about I read about a no confidence vote for the sheriff.

When was that? That was uh if my memory serves me correctly, it was in 2024, early 2024, I believe.

And uh we took u an anonymous no confidence vote or confidence vote and it returned um except for one vote, it was unanimous no confidence in Sheriff Nanos.

Um and that was done uh to kind of try and get the word out to the public uh to the voting public in Pimac County um that we’ve we’ve got some real issues in this department.

And that’s all.

Yeah.

I mean, so everyone except for one person in the union said no confidence.

Yes, sir.

And I my opinion is he probably didn’t understand the vote and maybe have made a made a mistake.

So what do the I mean so why does it see so why don’t they like him? What I mean well I think former chief deputy Castagar um kind of gave you some insight into the issues going on with with Sheriff Nanos.

He he has an ego that’s difficult to describe without sounding hyperbolic and it drives a lot of his decision-m.

He’s very retaliatory and their favorite version of retaliation is through transfers um and which has impacted nearly every unit in this department and and decreased our overall readiness in my opinion.

um nearly every unit the experience and expertise that was there was transferred out for whatever reason and um there there real impacts to that and it’s it lowered morale um and so there was a lot of hope that in in the election in 2024 that we would have a change at leadership and when that didn’t come to pass um very close but when it didn’t come to pass that’s when we started seeing these mass exodus of deputies and how close was 471 votes.

So he he lost by 400 He won by 471 votes.

Yeah.

471 481.

Less than 500.

It had it was so close it had to have a a mandatory recall per the Arizona state law.

And you mentioned the transfers and you you said it was like disciplinary discipline by transfer.

Is that what happened to you? Oh yes sir.

Um so I when I became [clears throat] president in 2023 of our union uh I initially decided hey let’s take a morale poll.

And so we did a morale poll.

came back uh pretty low and it came back with some comments and I thought that that that those comments would be beneficial to someone in a position of leadership.

So I quietly compiled them on a professional letter and sent them to Sheriff Nanos just put it in his basket and he could have thrown it away.

Um however uh he took exception to that and responded by transferring me to a position to hurt my family.

Uh that was confirmed to me later by by former Chief Deputy Castar.

What do you mean to hurt your family? So, I was on midnights because I had small children and my wife worked during the day.

They knew that and about seven months before one of his chiefs threatened me to move me off midnights and I explicitly reminded them that I’m on midnights for my family.

Um, but uh when I I sent that letter, they responded by transferring me uh to a day shift uh so that I would uh not have that time with my children.

And did you get transferred to like an office job at that time or Yes, sir.

So, what you you don’t even how much experience do you have? I this will be my 26th year.

Um I am the second most senior sergeant in the department.

But you’re not out on the street.

No.

No.

I He has me taking calls uh phone reports.

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