Hey everyone, I’m Ashley Banfield and this is Drop Deadad Serious.

Big news today in the Nancy Guthrie case.

It’s day, oh god, 54.

Um, every time I see the numbers go up like this, I still can’t believe how long this has been.

Um, but a lot has happened that I want to bring to you.

Number one, Savannah Guthrie has spoken for the first time openly about a lot of details.

Not just about how this has affected her, how it’s affected her family, but she’s also released details about the investigation and what happened inside that house that we had not heard before and some that actually confirm things that I reported to you in on day three.

So, I’m going to play for you uh the information that Savannah has released in her interview on the Today Show with Hodicopy.

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And also, I’ve learned some information as well from my sources in the investigation about the progress or lack thereof, specifics about that.

And in a moment, you’re also going to hear from an investigator who perhaps might be the leading authority on cases that are real difficult to solve.

Like the case that he was instrumental in solving took up to four decades to solve.

So Paul Holes, famous famous costic contra investigator, he is going to join me in just a moment and talk about when a case atrophies and how they draw down on the investigators, the staffing, the resources and all the rest.

Like what’s the actual metric they they use to start pulling everything away? Because right now we know there’s task force, right? It used to be 400 investigators, right? Now, we know it is task force and it may be only a dozen or so.

That’s FBI and Puma County Sheriff’s uh department investigators.

So, he’s really really knowledgeable about that, especially with the information that I just learned uh from my source um about where this investigation stands now.

So, let me just get right to it um with some of the news that Savannah Guthrie made um when she did her interview on the Today Show uh this morning.

And again, it is March 26th.

It’s Thursday.

Um, so Hoda got right to it and and talked about how she learned that her mom was missing, like what what were the steps that she went through to find out what had happened and arrive in Arizona and meet up with her siblings for the first time.

And what you’re about to hear is not only that information, but also listen very carefully in Savannah’s answer because she gives a detail about the back doors of the house.

And I need to tell you that a couple days ago I did an episode on information that I got from my sources, law enforcement sources, saying that the Guthrie kids had told the police that Mrs.

Guthrie routinely left her back doors, plural, open, unlocked.

And we did the best we could to look with every image we could at the back of Mrs.

Guthri’s house.

And we could only identify two back doors.

But since that episode, Gray Hughes, who also helped me to identify this, was able to identify a third door that you just cannot see.

It’s a third back door that actually goes into the kitchen.

Well, I was just on Ashley Banfield’s show yesterday and she well a recording and she put out a video and we were discussing where the doors are and then uh she apparently uncovered an image today where it shows um I think it’s Savannah Guthrie inside the home.

And here’s that picture right here.

Now, when you look at this, you see this uh kitchen over here and then there’s a window kind of high up here and there’s the undercovered area.

And the way you’re looking at in that kitchen is about like this.

So, that means that the kitchen sink and everything is right under here.

And then that door is right there.

Now, we haven’t seen any pictures where we see a door right there until just recently.

I just happened to be looking at it after um Ashley sent me that image.

I thought, well, heck, we got to go see if we can verify whether or not that door is in that position.

So, if we take a look at this video right here, this is one that was put out looks like on Forbes CNN video.

And this is the slider that goes into that living room area just as you come into the house or maybe family room.

I think it’s probably his living room.

So that’s a slider that goes in there and there’s sort of a long entryway down to the arch.

Now to the left here where they’re about to go into that’s likely Nancy Guthri’s bedroom slider.

So this is on that little sort of secluded patio.

And there you see it right there.

There is the bedroom slider.

But let me continue forward around the house here.

And then this guy right here comes walking out from under here.

Now, I didn’t notice it before, but look right there.

There’s a door.

And that matches exactly where you would predict the door would be based on an image.

There’s another back door that goes into the family room behind that outdoor patio.

And then there’s a third back door that goes to um a garage or a storage room.

At least that’s what the old plans say.

So there’s three back doors.

And if you listen to Savannah’s answer, you will hear her refer to back doors plural being open.

Take a listen.

And my sister called me and I said, “Is everything okay?” And she said, “No.

” She said, “Mom’s missing.

” And I said, “What?” Yeah.

What are you talking about? She said, “She’s gone.

” And we She was in a panic.

I I was in a panic.

I’m like, “Call 911.

” She’s like, “I did.

We’ve called them.

They’re here.

” And we thought that she must have had like some kind of medical episode in the night and that somehow, you know, the paramedics had come uh because the back doors were propped open, you know, and that didn’t make any sense.

We thought maybe they came and there’s a stretcher and they took her out the back, but her phone was there and her purse was there and all her things and it just didn’t make any sense.

So, you know, Annie and Tommy had already called all the hospitals, but then I’m like, I’m going to call the hospitals.

So, then I started calling the hospitals and and the the police were there and talking to her at the same time and it was just chaos and disbelief.

I was fascinated to hear that.

On day three of this investigation, my source told me back door wide open.

Now, I’ve had two other law enforcement sources who’ve confirmed back door wide open.

And here is Savannah saying back doors plural propped open.

So, just a very interesting piece um you know to the puzzle from Savannah herself.

I also want to play for you now what Savannah said about the condition of her mom.

We heard early on that um the Puma County Sheriff Chris Nano said that Mrs.

Guthrie couldn’t walk 50 yards without help.

Well, Savannah got more specific about her mom’s medical condition and her mobility.

Have a listen.

I mean, from the very early moments, you know, Annie and Tommy were saying, “This isn’t this isn’t that case that you are used to where someone wanders off.

She can’t wander off.

” Mhm.

My mom her her she was in tremendous pain.

Her back was very bad.

You know, she was trying to on a good day she could walk down to the mailbox and get the mail, but most days not.

So there was no wander off and the doors were popped open.

Yeah.

And there was blood on the front doorstep and the ring camera had been yanked off.

Yeah.

And so we were saying this is do something.

This is not okay.

Yeah.

This isn’t something is very wrong here.

Yeah.

Did you hear that last bit that Savannah said, what she mentioned that that front doorbell cam had been yanked off.

This is still a big mystery.

My source on day three said the cameras had been smashed.

I took that once we saw the empty bracket to mean maybe smashed off the mount, maybe something had been smashed off because Fox had reported that there were glass fragments below that front doorbell mount and then eventually the mount was seized and taken into evidence but not for weeks.

There is Savannah saying that it was yanked off.

And every time I see that perpetrator going back to the garden and pulling up some of the weeds and then holding them in his fists and coming towards the camera and then you can see his fists, working with it.

I keep thinking he’s using it as a vine to get between the camera and the mount and yank the camera off because you can’t get your fingers between it.

It’s too narrow.

the the nest cam and the mount are too narrow.

They’re like the width of a quarter.

So I kept and I wonder if Savannah thought that too or saw saw different video than we saw or more video than we saw.

Who knows? But maybe she’s come to that conclusion that that camera was yanked off.

Just a very interesting detail at a time when there are so few details.

Obviously this is such a painful interview um for Savannah.

I think every day is just excruciating.

And she’s already mentioned that at night she wakes up every night and that it’s excruciatingly painful.

Savannah then talked about um how look we’ve all asked the question, right? Why did this happen? Who took Mrs.

Guthrie and why? Who wanted Nancy Guthrie and why? And many of us have wondered is it because of her famous daughter? Right? And early on, those ransom notes made us feel like this must have been why, you know, you’re stealing her and then you’re sending this family ransom notes because maybe you know that that Nancy Guthrie had a wealthy, famous daughter in television.

And Savannah talks about that and about how she had a conversation with her brother about that and and she she steps into the portion about what we’ve all wondered like how much guilt must she have felt.

I’m using that word.

She’s not.

But you can see in her pain how she is struggling with this.

Take a look.

I mean, my siblings are so amazing.

My brother, you know, he spent his career in the military and worked in intelligence and a fighter pilot and is brilliant and he saw very clearly right away what this was.

Yeah.

And even on the phone when I called him, he knew.

He knew.

And he said, “I think she’s been kidnapped for ransom.

” And I said, “Yeah, what? Well, why? What?” And then I mean, it sounds so like how dumb could I be, but I just I didn’t want to believe.

I just said, “Do you think because of me?” And he said, “I’m sorry, sweetie, but yeah, maybe.

” But I knew that.

You did? I hope not.

I mean, we still don’t know.

Honestly, we don’t know anything.

We don’t know anything.

So, I don’t know.

Yeah.

that it’s because she’s my mom and somebody thought, “Oh, that girl, that lady has money.

We can get make a quick buck.

” I mean, that would make sense, but we don’t know.

But yeah, that’s probably which is too much to bear to think that I brought this to her bedside that it’s because of me.

And I just say I’m so sorry, Mommy.

I’m so sorry.

I’m sorry to my sister and my brother and my kids and my nephew and Tommy and my brother-in-law.

Just I’m like so sorry.

I’m so sorry if it is me.

I’m so sorry.

I’m so sorry.

One other detail that Savannah um released today was in furtherance to what she mentioned in one of her Instagram uh posts, which was my mom was taken from her bed in the dark of night.

Now she’s going further and giving details about what her mom uh was wearing when she was taken from that home.

Take a listen.

How is it possible that we are having to make a video speaking to a kidnapper who took an 84 year old woman in the dead of night in her pajamas with no shoes without her medicine.

This little person and to beg for mercy.

And that’s new.

Um, pajamas and no shoes.

That is new information cuz I think about Mrs.

Guthrie being taken if she was walking that stone path off of her front entrance, her tiled front entrance outside her front door, that would not be the kind of thing you’d want to walk on with with bare feet, without shoes.

Um, so it’s painful to think about, you know, an 84 year old woman being forced to walk over those stones without her shoes or, god forbid, being carried for whatever reason.

But that is a detail we didn’t know until now.

And Savannah spoke specifically about the whole ransom piece because we’re in well into the end of week eight right now, you know, and many of us have sort of felt as though the ransom piece has fallen away.

There hasn’t been any mention of it.

The ransom, the alleged ransom seekers never gave proof of life, never gave a second communication to say, “Okay, well, this did deadline passed now.

we’ll we’ll we’ll give you a proof of life or a photo and um and that’s all that Savannah and her um siblings asked for, right? If you’re real, you have to tell us that you’re real and you have to give us proof that you have my mother.

And so she speaks to the ransom piece because while we may have all moved on from it, it doesn’t feel like Savannah has.

There are a lot of different notes I think that came and I think most of them it’s my understanding are not real and I didn’t see them but um you know a person that would send a fake ransom note really has to look deeply at themselves.

Yeah.

To a family in pain.

But I believe the two notes that we received that we responded to Mhm.

I tend to believe those are real.

Really? Mhm.

We’ve talked on this podcast and many other people’s podcasts have spoken about this is when we got the ring cam video from the FBI showing that masked intruder at the front door.

Um, it was it was absolutely terrifying.

I remember the day I remember someone saying, “My god, it looks like a scene out of the movie Fargo.

It’s so scary.

Just this terrifying masked man.

” And then we went further to imagine once we learned from Savannah that her mom had been taken from her bed.

What must that have been like? The the fear that you can’t even imagine opening your eyes and seeing that when you’re in your safest space, right? Not only in your home, but in your bed.

And Savannah addressed that directly.

I mean, it’s just absolutely terrifying.

Yeah.

It’s just totally terrifying.

And I can’t imagine that that is who she saw standing over her bed.

Yeah.

I can’t.

That’s too much.

Yeah.

Savannah made note about what could only be sort of thought of as as the upside to at least having that video, right? We’ve got a suspect, at least some some details, right? Some forensic details, something to put out to the public to get tips.

That’s a huge upside.

But there was the other one where she said, you know, early on I had a source in the police who said the investigators were focusing on her brother-in-law, right? And they towed her sister’s car.

They they searched her sister’s house.

They photographed at night.

um they canvased her sister’s neighbor.

And so a lot of the press went over to uh her sister and her brother-in-law’s home.

The investigation has to do that.

Every investigation has to do that, right? But that was very difficult for Savannah.

And she made a mention of how this image at least tamped down a lot of the speculation about her family.

Have a listen.

And I’m glad and grateful to the investigators and the technology companies that were able to find that video.

Do I hope at least with people of good heart and compassion stop the irresponsible and cruel speculation that had started to swirl.

Let’s talk about that for a minute.

I’m glad that people saw Yeah.

what came to our door.

When you talk about the cruel speculation, the whispers, the innuendo that it was somebody in your family, how did you weather that? It’s unbearable.

And it piles pain upon pain.

There are no words.

There are no words.

I don’t understand.

I’ll never understand.

And no one took better care of my mom than my sister and brother-in-law.

And no one protected my mom more than my brother.

Obviously, Savannah is a woman of faith and she has made uh you know many mentions of how her faith has been helping her.

She’s mentioned it in her Instagram posts.

She has asked God for help.

She has written a book about how faith has guided her in life.

And she also told Hoda that the goodness and kindness of God is remarkable and an equal measure to my sorrow.

meaning that balance of how horrible it’s been and how wonderful God has been to her in all of this and helping get her through it.

And to that end, um Savannah also mentioned that God has spoken to her in in all of this.

And what she said really is profound in how Savannah has been processing this.

Take a listen.

As I said to myself, I can handle anything, God.

I can handle anything.

I just can’t handle not knowing.

We can’t handle not knowing.

Yeah.

I have to know.

And I heard a voice.

And it said, “You do know where she is.

She’s with me.

She’s with me.

So whether she is on this earth still or whether she is in heaven, I know where she is.

I know who she’s with.

But we, yes, need to know.

Savannah also spoke about the home, the family home.

And if you didn’t already know this, this was where she and her siblings grew up.

She even talked about how when she was 16 years old, she came home and her mom and her sister Annie were on the couch crying because they were about to tell her that her father had just died suddenly.

Just an earthshattering moment in the in the Guthrie family.

something that she said actually helped her mother prepare Savannah Anderson’s siblings for difficulties in life.

Obviously, this one being the most difficult, but here’s how she talks about um this Tucson home, their their family home, and how special it was to her mom.

My mom loved and treasured that house in good years and lean years.

They were able to hold on to that house.

That’s my mom’s safe haven.

It’s really hard to see that violated and the terror.

The terror that she must have felt is unbearable.

and it’s unbearable.

Hoda also asked Savannah about the decision to finally get on a plane and go back home to New York.

I mean, imagine yourself for a moment.

You’ve been living this nightmare for weeks and weeks on end in a temporary residence with your siblings with no answers, total confusion and terror, missing your mom, wondering and and your mind would race to the worst things.

And eventually you have these children and and a life and a family and a job and everything back up in New York that you’re going to have to return to.

But that decision of when and how hard that decision must have been.

But here’s how that part of the conversation went.

I looked out the window of the airplane and just thought, “Where are you?” Yeah.

That desert.

That beautiful desert that she loves.

Where are you? How could I leave you? One of the difficult things Savannah mentioned was that she moved houses many times.

We hadn’t known that either.

We knew that originally she’d been staying at her sister’s home and then moved to uh you know very private uh and secluded place, but we didn’t know that she had moved many times.

And then Hoda asked her a very specific question about how she thinks the investigation is going because I read a comment earlier in underneath um uh in the podcast, one of the podcasts I’ I’d released and someone said, “Have you noticed that there’s been no mention about the sheriff and the work that the sheriff’s doing?” And I started to wonder, I wonder how Savannah feels about that.

And Hoda asked her directly.

Well, it’s still going.

Yeah.

And yeah, people have worked tirelessly.

Tirelessly and we see that.

Mhm.

But we need answers.

We cannot be at peace without knowing and someone can do the right thing.

She definitely needs answers um more than any of us.

Savannah and her family need these answers, but are they going to get them? And when? How long? And so this is the key, right? As we move forward and we watch what’s happening with the Puma County Sheriff’s Department and the FBI and the task force that they’ve assembled, which is small, hell of a lot smaller than the 400 investigators several weeks ago.

Now we’re down to maybe a dozen or so, you know, maybe five or six from the Puma County Sheriff’s Department who now work in the Tucson field office of the FBI with, I don’t know, a handful.

They haven’t given us the numbers, but it’s the Tucson field office.

It’s not the Phoenix one.

Many of the agents returned back to the to the field office in in Phoenix.

So the atrophying of a case is real.

It’s a thing.

It is the natural order of things in an investigation because crimes continue and other crimes need investigating.

And to that end, a source in the investigation um has said, and this is a direct quote when asked, you know, where does the investigation stand? The direct quote is, “We ain’t got shit.

” That’s one of the investigators in the investigation.

We ain’t got And it is hard to hear that because all the while I have imagined that they’ve got really strong leads that they are pursuing that they’re close to getting right.

Like Cobberger, we did not know they were following him across the country, that they pulled his father’s garbage, and that they were parked outside his door and that they were grabbing him until they grabbed him.

Like we didn’t know all that was happening under the surface of the water where the ducks paddle under the water feverishly but it’s calm up above and you don’t know.

We did not know that and I assumed that was happening in this case.

I assumed that there’s something happening with this task force that they’re getting closer.

But then to hear that we ain’t got That dashed a lot of my optimism for now because I know there are es and flows.

There are es and flows.

And I know that because I talk to people like Paul Holes.

Paul is a former cold case investigator for the Contraosta County Sheriff’s Office and he is well known across this country around the world for his work solving the Golden State Killer case.

Took upwards of four three to four decades to catch that killer.

But they did it right.

That trail went cold for weeks, then months, then years, then decades.

and he’s the guy who was instrumental in helping to bring that case to an end and finding that person and putting him away despite the fact he was in his 70s.

So, I called him about the we ain’t got comment, right? Should I be optimistic? Should I be dashed about this investigation at week eight? And he’s got some really interesting things to say about that.

So, you’re going to hear his his um well, his perspective on a what it means, b where it’s going, see how things draw down in the natural order of investigations as life continues and other crimes continue and the taxpayers need resources elsewhere, how things shrink, when they expand, how they shrink again.

So, he’s going to tell you about that in in reference to the Guthrie investigation.

But also, I asked him a few other things about my source and the information I learned earlier this week, which was that the blood pattern outside the front door, which is on the entrance way of her home, outside her front door, the blood spatter pattern that goes down the front walkway.

How my source said it is replicated inside the home right over the threshold and into the front entrance hallway, foyer, however you describe the front entrance of someone’s home as you get inside.

that those blood droplet patterns are identical right there.

I’ve learned where in the house that blood was, and it’s right inside the front entrance of the home, the foyer, the the hallway, whatever it is, but nowhere else.

It starts there at that front entrance inside.

It goes over the threshold and outside onto the outdoor patio tiles and then down the walkway.

So, I asked Paul about that because it turns out Paul is also a blood spatter expert.

So, he’s going to weigh in on that.

Then I also asked Paul before Savannah spoke about the well Savannah’s words were the back doors were propped open.

She said it twice.

Was she being colloquial with propped? Because three different law enforcement um investigators and sources of mine have said back door wide open.

There are three.

I know I said two in another podcast.

We have since discovered a a door you can’t see in any of the pictures or video, but it’s a door that goes into the kitchen um sideways to the house.

If you’re looking from the backyard at the back of the house, it’s a perpendicular door, so you cannot see it unless you were to look over at it, but it enters into the back patio where the patio furniture is in the backyard.

And there are three doors.

And she said back doors propped open.

Did she mean left open or propped with something? and plural.

She said it twice and said the plural doors twice.

It was very interesting.

Um I asked Paul Holes about this news that I had broken earlier this week that the back doors had regularly been left unlocked by Mrs.

Guthrie.

This was just sort of a habit.

She didn’t always lock those back doors plural.

And I asked Paul to weigh in on that as well in terms of the victimology and um you know suspect if there was such a thing how they factor that information into the investigation.

So with all that here’s my conversation with Paul Holes.

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Paul, what do you make of this information that I’ve uncovered from a source saying one of the investigators is heard saying, quote, “We ain’t got shit.

” You know, it’s having worked many different types of cases and right now with the Nancy Guthrie case, I would put this in this who done it category.

Um, and these cases sometimes can resolve quickly, sometimes can take weeks, sometimes can take years.

So, just because you have an inside source saying we ain’t got right now after what, seven weeks? We’re into eight.

Yeah, eight weeks.

You know, this is not a typical for this type of case for a variety of region reasons because, you know, sometimes comprehensive forensic testing can take months.

Um, you may be following various investigative leads that dead end and then you have to back up and then go down different paths.

Sometimes it’s a matter of the right tip hasn’t come in.

So right now, even though we have this situation, Nancy Guthrie, there’s an exigency because the hope is she’s still alive.

And you want to get that information, that in those investigative leads that will get her home safe.

But the reality is is that in these who done it cases, it can take a long time.

if the offender is actually doing things to try to prevent himself from being caught.

And and I believe that’s what’s happening in this case.

You know, it just makes me think, have you ever heard of a case, seen a case, read about a case where an offender steals an old woman to keep the old woman for weeks or months? Have you ever seen it happen for any reason and never asked for anything back? like never asked for money or or some kind of connection with the family.

Just had no ulterior motive.

No.

You know, I you know, we’ve we’ve talked before about this case.

You know, the offender, he communicated with the media that he abducted Nancy for ransom.

He This was his communication.

He is controlling the narrative.

I want money.

Um, however, you know, when I take a look at the circumstances, and this is I still stand by this opinion.

When I see him in that costume, you know, on the front porch, uh, I’m looking at that going, that does not look right at all.

He wants to be seen.

He’s misdirecting.

So, you know, he is trying to lead the investigation down a certain path and then I’m looking at it going, you know what, don’t look at this as an abduction ransom case.

I think he possibly had some personal connection to Nancy and he went to the house to harm her.

And so when I hear, you know, an inside source that you’ve developed that we don’t have anything on this case, so it’s like, okay, so what was the assumption? Let’s back up.

You guys may have followed a certain investigative path, a certain forensic path, and it hasn’t panned out after almost eight weeks.

Let’s, you know, resettle.

Let’s re-evaluate and start looking at other possibilities possibilities where this offender actually has some level of connection to the family to Nancy.

I I I can’t tell you where that would be, but he has targeted Nancy for a reason.

But it sounds to me like you’re talking about him being a mastermind.

like I’m going to cosplay and misdirect and then take her and then send fake ransom notes to TMZ and and the local media.

Like that’s not a real ransom, you know, uh seek her.

They don’t go to the media.

They say don’t go to the media.

Don’t go to the police.

So So you aren’t you ascribing a lot more to this guy than maybe what he might be capable of.

Well, but that’s also part of what I’m evaluating is okay, he’s going to the media with the ransom.

Why is he doing that? because that complicates his life.

He’s that just makes it harder for him to get what he is saying his goal is, which is the financial, you know, assets.

You know, all this media attention is not making his life any easier.

Him posing in front of the front porch camera is not making his life any issue.

He’s doing this on purpose.

So, that’s where I’m thinking you have to take a look at the possibility that his primary goal was to cause harm to Nancy.

Um, and why is he doing that? You know, and I think there’s, you know, two paths that I would look at.

You have the celebrity status of Savannah Guthrie.

Then you have maybe a personal interaction that he’s had with Nancy and then he’s recognizing, oh, there might be some financial resources that I can potentially exploit in order to misdirect law enforcement, you know.

So this is this is where I think instead of looking at this as an abduction ransom case, I mean my my personal opi opinion is is that this is very possibly a straightup homicide case and now he’s staging it, making it look like utilizing the media.

And when you say, well, is he some sort of criminal mastermind? It’s not necessarily being a criminal mastermind.

You are now dealing with what I would say is a sophisticated and intelligent offender that is trying to commit a crime that he wants to commit, but also have self-preservation.

He doesn’t want to be caught, you know.

So, he’s, I would say, a more intelligent offender.

And we run across these guys consistently.

You know, we have dumb offenders.

they don’t do this level of thing.

You know, he at least has a level of intelligence to think things through.

Now, criminal mastermind, I I you know, the posing in front of the front porch camera in that costume, I’d go, “Oh, no.

He’s not a criminal mastermind.

” But he at least has a level of sophistication to know how to manipulate the investigation and how to manipulate the media.

Well, one of the I mean, who knows what the investigators are doing in the background.

All we can say is that at one point within the last seven and a half weeks, they had 400 people working this case.

And now as we go into month two, uh we know there’s a task force.

It has a half dozen or less um homicide uh members from Puma County and then an unknown number from the FBI.

All of them in the Tucson field office.

The rest of the FBI have pulled back to the Phoenix um FBI field office.

And so that tells me that it ain’t 400.

Right.

Right.

Uh, but now what happens? Like when you hear we ain’t got Um, when when does the investigation atrophy further? How does it atrophy further? When does it go down to we have one guy who watches it every other day or when a lead comes in? You know, that’s that’s actually very hard to predict, especially with such a high-profile case.

Um, you know, the Puma County Sheriff’s Office is going to have limited resources.

You know, I don’t know exactly what size that sheriff’s office is, you know, but they they can only do so much and they’re going to have other active cases coming in in which these investigators are going to have to be pulled off the Guthrie case in order to handle because they’re going to have active public safety things that they they need to be dealing with.

you know, the FBI, the FBI has amazing uh manpower, amazing resources.

However, the FBI, they don’t investigate homicide cases on a routine basis.

That’s why it’s always best to have we don’t know.

We don’t know if it’s homicide.

True.

And and and I’m and and I’m not saying it’s a homicide, but I would be treating this on a resource level as a homicide.

You have to at this point 84 year old victim who’s been gone for 8 weeks, he’s no longer asking for anything.

Is he taking the time to keep her alive? If if honestly I I have to just jump in because I keep saying this over and over.

if he was ever asking for anything in the beginning because in my opinion that ransom was just a bad actor from overseas trying to scam a victimized family.

Uh I never believed that the ransom all the different iterations of ransom seeking had anything to do with the actual crime other than someone trying to profit off it.

Yeah, it well and and and and I think I completely agree with you with with what I know about the case is that you know I I don’t think this is an abduction ransom case unfortunately you know so this is where what would be the purpose of a homicide though 84 year old woman with no demands with nothing I mean no sort of I don’t know no letter to say ha I gotcha I just just doesn’t seem to be any reason what would you see as a purpose for a homicide if it’s a homicide there’s There’s so many motives, you know, you know, fundamentally when you when you take a look at it and and as far as I know, there isn’t any indication that he stole anything out of the house, you know.

So, this isn’t a, you know, like a a burglary for property theft that went sideways, you know.

So, now I think it’s more a a personal interaction.

you know, he had a vendetta against Nancy, uh, or there, you know, it, you know, and I don’t I don’t want to put too much weight on this, but you also have to consider, and I’ve worked these types of cases, we do have women this age that are sexually assaulted and killed.

Um, so, you know, there’s that possibility.

However, you know, the offender potentially by removing her out of the house that elevates his risk because now he has a victim inside his vehicle.

So, why is he doing that? You always have to consider why is the offender doing a an action or a behavior that causes his risk to be elevated.

Well, if it is that and I I am with you.

We have talked about geriatric rape on this program.

It’s a thing and it’s hard to believe.

People need to understand it is real.

It does happen.

And yeah, and the and I’ve said it before, the statistic that was given to me by a prominent homicide homicide prosecutor in California um said that the percentage of perpetrators of geriatric rape um in their 20s, it’s 92%.

92% of the geriatric rapers are in their rapists are in their their 20s.

So it is a thing.

But I think when you said he elevates his risk by taking her out of the house, I think he mitigates his risk because you know rape is a very very hard thing to keep um your DNA from showing up.

Well, and and maybe he recognized that after he committed the crime, you know, or knew it in advance.

Yeah.

So, so it it it all depends on the dynamics of the violence that occurred, you know.

So, if he recognized that, oh, I’ve left my DNA behind.

I need to remove the source of the DNA.

And that’s removing NY’s body out of the house.

Then yes, he has taken a step to in his mind lower the risk.

But now he has a victim in his vehicle which he could absolutely be pulled over in the middle of the night, right? You know, there’s there there’s aspects that where I’m looking at it going, “Okay, there’s there’s a possibility that you now are trying to do something that you think is self-preservation.

However, you are elevating your risk.

” And and that’s where I just get back to that question of why is he doing that? And it may go back to your question is he’s now re recognizing he’s left objective identifying DNA evidence on or in NY’s body and now he has to take her with him.

Absolutely.

I I completely agree with that.

But you know, one thing I didn’t think of, and I don’t know why I didn’t think of it till now, because so often the conversations we’ve had, it’s elevating your risk if you take a victim and put that victim in your car.

Now, your car is going to be invested.

What if it was a stolen car overnight? You know, what if he stole a car overnight, did this dastardly thing, and eventually got rid of NY’s body, and then put that car back uh that next morning or in a day.

And no one knows, you know, no one’s the wiser.

It’s possible.

You know, I’ I’ve I’ve got cases in which offenders have stolen vehicles, they switch license plates, you know, they did their crime, then they switch license plates back, and then they they dumped the car, you know, and and sometimes these cars are set on fire.

Sometimes I had one car end up in Tijana, you know, it’s it it’s so, you know, that that is a possibility, but that also is informative about the criminal history of the the offender.

Typically, you know, this isn’t your novice criminal offender.

If he’s doing that, he understands the system and then knows how to, uh, get rid of something like a stolen vehicle.

Let me tell you, uh, my street was burglarized.

All the cars on my street burglarized.

And it turns out the vehicle with the kids in it was stolen.

So, the dumb kids even knew enough to steal a car to commit their crimes.

And it makes me think if anyone’s watching right now, if you happen to be in the Tucson area, if you remember something weird about your vehicle, I mean, it was parked in a different place the next morning on February 1st, or you know, something was odd.

There was dirt on it, you didn’t recognize, and you just you can’t get past what the heck happened, and you think your friend took it, and you can’t get over that, your friend won’t admit it, it might be worth calling the police.

It might be worth calling 1800 FBI because, you know, it’s entirely possible this guy stole a car, did his crimes, put that car back, and he’s walking free.

No.

No.

Absolutely.

And and I would say if you have something like that that you remember, open up the trunk of your car or the back seat and shine a flashlight and see if you can see some dark stains because NY’s bleeding.

And it’s possible she bled in this vehicle she was transported in.

And if if the vehicle has darker fabric, that blood is not going to be very readily visible.

I’ve I’ve experienced that myself.

So, you have to really look.

So, as a an investigator, um if there’s somebody watching right now who thinks, “Geez, you know what? I couldn’t figure out what the hell went on February 1st.

I had that weird thing happened.

My vehicle was parked different and I I assume my wife did it, but then she said she didn’t and I figured she was playing a prank.

” Whatever it is.

Um, what exposure does somebody have if they call the Puma County Sheriff’s Department or 1800 FBI? That’s the one I recommend.

Um, now, do they need a lawyer? Because if their card processed and NY’s blood is in it and they’re the ones that came forward, what exposure do they have? What kind of protection do they need? You know, it usually becomes very obvious very early on if I mean, you think about this.

What what offender in this case is going to call up law enforcement and say, “Hey, nice cover.

It’s a nice cover.

” But you know what? I It’s not a difficult thing to resolve typically with innocent people.

You know, you are doing the right thing by coming forward and saying, “Hey, I I I recognize this.

I heard details, you know, on Ashley Banfield’s show and I thought, hey, you know what? I think, you know, maybe there’s something going on here.

Um, and you will be interviewed for sure and and law enforcement is going to kind of take a look at your background and where you’re at and everything else and and and stuff, but you know, if you’re truly innocent, that’s not going to be a a factor at all.

I mean, you be very easily cleared.

You hope.

Yeah.

I mean, we’ve certainly had innocent people put away, but you’re right.

What kind of a guilty person’s going to call up and say, “Oh, hey.

” Um, but it is a guy.

Well, and and not this guy.

I mean, look at look at what he’s doing now.

I mean, he, you know, put out there, I you know, maybe he’s the one that communicated.

Maybe it’s like what you said.

He, you know, somebody else online took advantage of the situation.

This guy doesn’t want to get caught.

He doesn’t want to get, you know, any law enforcement attention.

And if he were to call law enforcement under some sort of ruse as being an innocent person, it’s going to be pretty easy to to sort him out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There’s so many electronic alibis now as well.

Not just if you live alone and you were sleeping that night, your watch will tell everybody where whether you were sleeping, your phone, your front door, you know, did it open? Did it close? I mean, there’s all sorts of things that can and your, you know, the video and your street that can see so much.

Let me ask you.

I mean, I feel like I’ve almost exhausted the the question um that I can’t get out of my mind, and that is this investigator saying, “We ain’t got shit.

” I was so sad when I heard that cuz I’m not kidding, Paul.

I really did believe that there’s, you know, I I keep calling it the duck theory.

There’s this calm little duck floating on the surface of the water and nothing’s happening and then down below their little paddles are going like mad and we can’t see it.

I assumed that was this investigation.

And actually, I asked my husband about it over dinner and he said, “Wait, there aren’t 400 officers or 400 people working on that case anymore.

I mean, I think a lot of people don’t realize it’s atrophied down to a small task force.

” Um, and and it will get smaller.

It’s just how and when do they make those decisions? What what makes those decisions for them? Well, there’s, you know, there’s a lot of factors.

You know, of course, it it, you know, primarily it comes down to each agency, uh, what their level of resources are, you know, how many cases they’re having to handle.

you know, the the if you’re talking about a sheriff’s office, you know, the sheriff has, you know, public safety needs that he needs to meet, you know, and at a certain point, if if the case is um kind of dwindling, uh then he’s going to have to reallocate those resources to handle, you know, other cases that are coming up, you know, and then the feds have the same issue just in a different capacity, you know.

But what I what I will say is that um you know this case is going to have legs for sure and there will be resources dedicated to it.

But what kind like how many what sort and for how long? Well, in terms of how long I I can’t I can’t speak to that because it depends on what happens.

you know, let’s say we have, you know, a a major, you know, terrorist action because the Iran war is going on.

The FBI is going to be pulled off of this case in order to to address that.

Um, you know, so at this point, you know, I would say natural order of law enforcement is what you’re saying is that, you know, there are other things happening that need our attention and our tax dollars as well.

Well, and that’s where, you know, I I spent so much time working cold cases and, you know, many of these cases went cold is because law enforcement resources got directed to current cases.

You know, that’s just it.

You know, there’s always more cases that are coming in and then after a case goes so long and you know, like with this particular case, there’s going to be an assessment.

Okay, what’s the public safety threat? You know, do we have a serial rapist? Do we have a serial killer? Do we have a bank robber that’s going in and killing people on a weekly basis? That’s probably not what this case is.

And so, as time goes on, law enforcement authorities are going to go, “Okay, this was a one-off.

It’s not an active public safety threat.

We want to solve it.

However, resources have to be going to the current state in our jurisdiction to keep the public safe.

And that’s just the nature of law enforcement.

And I know it’s frustrating to hear.

It’s frustrating for me as a cold case investigator going, can’t we do something on these older cases? But the reality is is law enforcement is there for the current situation of keeping the public safe first and foremost.

And then you go to the cases that now have some age to them.

With Nancy Guthri’s case, the big question mark is, is she still alive or not? And that’s where you still will have resources dedicated with the hope that she’s still alive.

Well, and and I got to say, this may sound crazy, but the podcasters come in as well.

You know, there’s plenty of podcasters out there who have actually really crowdsourced a lot of uh leads and details and solutions.

Gabby Patito was found because of a podcaster.

I think the Elgen, Illinois Police Department, they put out the podcast.

I think it’s called Somebody Knows Something.

And they were able to find the car of a long missing woman who was dead under, you know, a river at the bottom of a river.

So there there are alternate um means to continue the heat, so to speak.

Uh but being on your side of law enforcement and knowing that there’s people like me on the other side here just looking for the information, doesn’t it make sense to keep feeding the media so that they will keep the story alive and keep the tips coming in there? Well, there there most certainly is a a strategy that law enforcement can continue to employ.

And you know, one of the criticisms that I have with law enforcement is they they have a tendency to circle the, you know, the bandwagon, right? We’re not going to interact with media.

And very early on in a case, that’s appropriate.

You have to keep details about the case out of the public domain because those details may be what is needed in order to be able to successfully solve and prosecute the case.

But as the case ages and as you know understanding the circumstances more experienced investigators and agencies start understanding.

We need to make sure that we can continue to keep the media and the public informed because there may be a solution as we provide more details.

Unfortunately, there’s so many agencies that literally put their head in the sand and never communicate any more any more details of the case because they just don’t have the experience to evaluate how to I’d call it a seessaw.

You know, it’s sort of like as time goes on, you need to be able to feed more details.

Um, and this this is where I would say with this particular case that seessaw is fa is faster.

You need to start feeding more details to the public because you have the public’s attention.

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